Extraordinary Congress

ken wrote:I refer to my post on 2nd Nov ...

http://tablefootball.friendhood.net/t196p10-world-masters-in-malta#2990

I refer to my post on Aug 23, 2010

drastis wrote:It is really sad to see how wrong things go with FISTF. What upsets me most in this is that I cannot find ANY serious reason why such things should happen. Vanity? Provocation? Selfishness? One must be really selfish to keep on destroying a whole community just for a place in a BoD...

Us Greeks have seen this happening before. Unfortunately, when we cried our lungs out for support nobody in FISTF community gave a penny. Everyone said it was not their business and we were left alone. But, what goes around, comes around. And it now came around bigger.

My suggestion to national federations is to NOT LET the provisional BoD complete their evil plans. Representatives of nations in Rain MUST ELECT a new BoD. And countries that will not be in Rain MUST VOTE by email. DON'T EAT THE BAIT. Insist in having an election! Don't let FISTF die. Don't give them the chance to hi-jack FISTF.

And this one written on May 18, 2010:

drastis wrote:Well, when until last year we greek players were crying out for help, most of the people in other countries felt annoyed. It was "our" business to try and solve our "problems" they said.

What happened to us then is happening to all now, isn't it funny how things turn out? "Strange" decisions are made by people who want to become absolute rulers and think they are the only ones who can "first and foremost" represent their countries.

The method is EXACTLY the same, ruling out the other nominees so that there is no alternative choice for voters, only the "provisionary" BoD members!!! The target is EXACTLY the same, taking full control of the Federation. Probably, the owners of the ideas must be EXACTLY the same people...

For those who are wondering what is going to happen next, let me inform you that the Greek National Championships 2010 took place last week, hitting a low-participation record since 2003 of LESS THAN 40 PLAYERS in the Open Category.

Enjoy!!

kechris wrote:

Admin wrote:And tonight I heard that the FISTF Board lost one more member...

Olivier wasn not BoD member. He was a partner. Like the CoN. He couldn't take decisions. Only to make proposals.

Who told you this? I don't think Olivier would have started anything without being nominated a Sports Director and thus a Board member.

Many of us were right, but the problems of FISTF are far bigger and have far longer history than this year. After Catania and co are kicked out there is time to look forward, and create a federation that learns from its mistakes in the past.

I know from the first time that Olivier was not elected. So he couldn't vote as BoD member.
Catania ask by Oliv to keep the sport department for the good of the game.
Oliv maybe accepted the proposal because he loves the game but finally he gave extra time to Catania and co. When a sheep selects wolves for partners, you know the end...

Hi Kostas, first of all i hope you had a merry xmas.
That's not right, what you wrote here. If Catania coopt Olivier, which he did, Olivier is a normal bod member with vote. The president can do that, the reason is that there is no need to make new elections every time when a member resigns. The only exception is the president, if he resigns new elections have to be done.
I think the real problem was that the board seems to vote about proposals. It is not good when the financial director r communication director for an example decide about sport matters. There for the sports commission was a very good plan, but as it seemed it didn't replace the votings of the board, which should be the logic consiquence of building such a sport commission.

kechris wrote:I know from the first time that Olivier was not elected. So he couldn't vote as BoD member.
Catania ask by Oliv to keep the sport department for the good of the game.
Oliv maybe accepted the proposal because he loves the game but finally he gave extra time to Catania and co. When a sheep selects wolves for partners, you know the end...

the CoN will have to set a deadline for the BoD to organize an EGM, if they don't make use of their right, the CoN will organize it

I think the Con should give a deadline to Bod to decide when and where the EGM will be (maybe you meant this). If the Bod will not decide anything about the EGM until the deadline, then we should just totally ignore all what the Bod says. The Bod should be no more in charge of FISTF, if they are not interested to organize the EGM, and then the Con should decide about the EGM and be in charge until the EGM.

Is there any other way, if the majority is againts the current Bod ?

Merry Christmas Heinz.
The President has two solutions-selections when a BoD member retired.
Or replace this member by the first substitute of the people who was candidates in elections. Because the elections was illegal and because the rest no elected candidates are against Catania so he prefered the second solution-selection.
He didn't replace the BoD member (he can do it if the rest BoD members are 50% +1) but he select a person for this position WITHOUT vote.
I am sure that this law is active in all countries because the same law use the BoD in companies.

I think that only the law can ban Catania if he don't want to retire. Another solution is one more person of BoD members to retired. Then the 50%+1 of BoD are retired.
The last solution is to come all the represantives of FISTF's members in Greece to make a "special" dialogue with the Catania co.

p.s i wrote the next day of W.C in Rain that ALL the present people in meeting WHO KEPT THEIR MOUTH CLOSE are chickens. You lost the opportunity because an Italian said a blackmail. No we lost this year and maybe we will "loose" and the next year. I want FISTF but if you cann't win Catania immediately i propose to create a new FEDERATION.

There are some things I've learned in the past year.:

- The only major country is Italy. Italy can live alone we do not.

- There are countries where table football is growing . others where it is disappearing. To deny it is a crime.

- Require that partnerships are legally recognized in their countries and who have insurance for their events is very normal if you want to grow.

- That Koutromanos in Greece, when re-vote, will win the election because hare an good job. (en Greece, repite).

- All this confusion was born because 99% of people in football-player table. Players are only interested in three things: schedule, results and ranking. Other issues of interest only to 1 %.... that we who write in this forum.

- If, tomorrow, Finland, Austria, Germany, Holland and Belgium go FISTF the problem is theirs and not the FISTF. Mattesburg sure you want to play a champions in Italian? Oliviere sure you want to organize a tournament in Mons without Italian, Greek and Spanish? Sure Eric wants to play a World Cup if Bertelli, Bolognina, Flores, Gauci, Cremona, Bais, etc. ..don't play?

- think we have an obligation to be together, to set aside personal problems (95% of FISTF problems are personal problems) and to search solutions.

- Pride has historically done more damage than oil.

- Spain where Italy will always want to go. At least while I am president of the AFM.

Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año 2011.

Piero

pierocapponi wrote:- The only major country is Italy. Italy can live alone we do not.

But many nations and many players are ready to start an association without Italy. it was a mistake not to have elections in september when De Francesco wade blackmail. If Italy had left FISTF, I'm sure within 3 months there would be a new association in Italy with the players who want to be part of FISTF.

pierocapponi wrote:- Require that partnerships are legally recognized in their countries and who have insurance for their events is very normal if you want to grow.

This is absolutely stupid. The "Insurance rule" is totally bullshit. In some nations there are laws that do not match the "compulsory" rules made by Catania. This idiot should better know what are the laws in every country before making some rules compulsory and telling people he's going to cancel tournaments.

pierocapponi wrote:- That Koutromanos in Greece, when re-vote, will win the election because hare an good job. (en Greece, repite).

Koutromanos is not doing good work. Someone who is dividing the unity of table football in his country should be banned of the table football community forever.

pierocapponi wrote:- All this confusion was born because 99% of people in football-player table. Players are only interested in three things: schedule, results and ranking. Other issues of interest only to 1 %.... that we who write in this forum.

That's why Catania should understand what people expect from FISTF. Catania will never have any credibility as long as he will not understand that players expect from FISTF to have results, news, websites, a good circuit... and a world ranking that qualifies players and clubs for the WC/EC.

pierocapponi wrote:- If, tomorrow, Finland, Austria, Germany, Holland and Belgium go FISTF the problem is theirs and not the FISTF. Mattesburg sure you want to play a champions in Italian? Oliviere sure you want to organize a tournament in Mons without Italian, Greek and Spanish? Sure Eric wants to play a World Cup if Bertelli, Bolognina, Flores, Gauci, Cremona, Bais, etc. ..don't play?

If tomorrow there is a world association without let's say Greece, Malta, Italy and Spain, I know many greek, italian, maltese and spanish players who will do their best to be part of the world cup.

pierocapponi wrote:- think we have an obligation to be together, to set aside personal problems (95% of FISTF problems are personal problems) and to search solutions.

Yes, you should have understood that last January when you were one of the people who destroyed FISTF. You should have explained that to Catania, Koutromanos,... when you realized you were 100% wrong!

Hola Piero,

pierocapponi wrote:- The only major country is Italy. Italy can live alone we do not.

Yes, Italy is the only very big country for now. In a couple of years that can change.

Anyone can live alone. We had no problems enjoying Table Football and having new members before getting involved with FISTF again. Most countries have a good circuit or good tournaments and the absolute majority of players don't need anything else.

If you believe, that the FISTF and the international activity are irreplaceable, you make a huge mistake. They will be replaced either inside countries or by creating another international tournaments.

FISTF on the other hand, can't live with only 4-5 countries. It would be even more of a joke for a global federation, than it is now.

And it's FISTF we are talking about, not any individual countries.

pierocapponi wrote:- There are countries where table football is growing . others where it is disappearing. To deny it is a crime.

I don't think anyone is denying this. So why doesn't FISTF do anything to help those disappearing. Catania's board is just making the disappearance faster, although it seems that the previous board didn't do much to help either. But at least they had interest in the smaller nations, but lacked any real decisions to better the situation.

pierocapponi wrote:- Require that partnerships are legally recognized in their countries and who have insurance for their events is very normal if you want to grow.

In Finland we have all the insurances needed for our activity according to the finnish law. The finnish players are covered by their own insurances and the foreigners by their travelling insurances. Why do we need anything more?

Please tell me also what we are supposed to be insuring? The index fingers of players, perhaps? Catania hasn't told it.

If you mean a license like in other sports, then it's something the players pay for themselves. We would just provide the needed papaerwork, so that the players don't do it individually in an insurance company.

pierocapponi wrote:- That Koutromanos in Greece, when re-vote, will win the election because hare an good job. (en Greece, repite).

If found guilty in the court, I would assume he would be banned from the association at least for some period.

Do you think the big greek divide at the moment will just go away, if he continues? The other greeks, who don't like the way things are done, would be happy to create a new federation instead of FISTF. That's the feeling I'm getting.

pierocapponi wrote:- If, tomorrow, Finland, Austria, Germany, Holland and Belgium go FISTF the problem is theirs and not the FISTF. Mattesburg sure you want to play a champions in Italian? Oliviere sure you want to organize a tournament in Mons without Italian, Greek and Spanish? Sure Eric wants to play a World Cup if Bertelli, Bolognina, Flores, Gauci, Cremona, Bais, etc. ..don't play?

What makes you so sure all the italians are so happy with everything with FISTF or even the FISCT? They are not. You can read it in their forum. Even top players like Bertelli (and for example one maltese, I forgot the name) have criticised the FISTF tournament organisation of Catania's Board (Greek GP's, the masters).

Do you also think that without the belgians, Mattersburg, Verhagen, Dejardin etc. the italian clubs and players would not miss anything?

With this separation, you are strangely accepting (if I understand correctly), the FISTF as a global federation will effectively die.

How can you accept this, by writing these things? Why don't you put pressure on the italians (the people with power, like De Francesco), if you are in so good terms with them?

pierocapponi wrote:- think we have an obligation to be together, to set aside personal problems (95% of FISTF problems are personal problems) and to search solutions.

Would you say this to the opposition candidates of the presidential election in Byelorussia?

Most people don't accept any bullshit tyrant, if they have a choice. And for many of us there are choices.

Also, I think you are very wrong by saying that it's personal problems 95%. The finn's for example don't have personal problems with anyone. We just hate the dictatorship and complete disregard of rules. It has nothing to do with persons. If Janus would become the dictator in the place of the grotesque monster Cat-Kout, it would be the same thing.

I personally don't like the unbelievably amateurish way to make decisions in the FISTF (the structure). There can be many personal problems, but they would not destroy everything, if the federation was working properly.

And also, have you written this to De Francesco? He always ridicules me without any argumentation in the italan forum. Why doesn't he come here to say those things? I did try to even understand his actions a few months ago, but it has gotten too personal from his side. Also in the Council, as you very well know, Piero.

pierocapponi wrote:- Pride has historically done more damage than oil.

People without any pride are sheep or slaves. I don't see any harm in leaving a federation of dictatorship and unlawful management. It has nothing to do with having too much pride. And only excessive amount of pride can be dangerous (I don't, by the way, think the comparison with oil is correct).

pierocapponi wrote:- Spain where Italy will always want to go. At least while I am president of the AFM.

What do you mean by this? So because Spain is much bigger than 2 years ago, you can just jump in with Italy and don't care about the rest of FISTF?

Sorry, Piero, but sometimes I don't know if you are a bird or a fish. And your post sounded like you accept the situation, and criticise us, because we don't accept it. Please tell me, I was mistaken.

Do not forget that the idea and signed by an extraordinary congress are mine.

But do not forget recent history. Vincent was working last year alone. To all of you only interested in results, the timing and ranking. Absolutely nothing else.

Those who have tried to grow their own countries they call dreamers ..

half a year ago and Vincent dike will catch a plane and go with me to see the ABCD SERIES Italian to understand that level of difference between Italy and any other country. He said he had nothing to learn from the Italians.

Sorry, not true that we can live without the FISTF. In a country like Spain with 200 players, with a calendar and a well organized activity dataO, the world remains a nice place to uncover ...

I am very surprised to read the reviews when assigned tournaments or world championships .... you did a calculation where these competitions have been played in the last 10 years? And remember why we made an extraordinary congress in Frankfurth? For the previous board did not convene a congress!!

I'm waiting for the extraordinary congress, but do not expect now that Catania is the "dictator" and the rest are all little angels....

Feliz Navidad.

Piero

pierocapponi wrote:- That Koutromanos in Greece, when re-vote, will win the election because hare an good job. (en Greece, repite).

Piero you came in Greece incognito but you didn't meet other clubs represantives except Koutroumanos and Papakonstantinou. So how you have this opinion?
In spain before 30 years all the Real Madrid fans were satisfied with Franco. But the fan of the rest teams are angry. I hope you can understand what i mean...
Can you explain me why Koutroumanos did illegal elections if he was sure that he will win the elections? Maybe he can spend more money but the money cann'y buy everything.


pierocapponi wrote:- The only major country is Italy. Italy can live alone we do not.

Nobody cann't live alone. Italy have many and good players and clubs. Italy has 6 times more persons than Greece Belgium so is normal to have more teams and players than these two countries. Spain has the same number of people with Italian but the 15% of players and clubs. So please don't confuse the numbers.

Pierro open your eyes. FISTF had problems the last years. But the team who destroyed totally the FISTF was Catania's company.
Catania, Koutroumanos, Collins, De Francesco, Garnier are the certain responsible.
I think that you resigned because you understand you big fault last January.
please proove to all of us that you understand your fault because i cann't find your reasons to ask EGM.

Goodmorning

I am not writing to judge if someone has done a good job or not. This is beyond the scope of our discussion - or at least it should be. I am very angry with you Mr Capponi because you cannot - or do not want to understand that in a country like Greece (with all the good and evil of its people), the most important think we have is democracy. For the Greeks, someone who does not respect democracy is a fascist. I know the same goes for Spaniards, apparently not for you. And to tell you the truth, at least this someone is a fascist and is proud to be. But someone who legitimates a fascist is even worse.

I know you will not understand, but I am sure many will

pierocapponi wrote:Do not forget that the idea and signed by an extraordinary congress are mine.

But do not forget recent history. Vincent was working last year alone. To all of you only interested in results, the timing and ranking. Absolutely nothing else.

Those who have tried to grow their own countries they call dreamers ..

half a year ago and Vincent dike will catch a plane and go with me to see the ABCD SERIES Italian to understand that level of difference between Italy and any other country. He said he had nothing to learn from the Italians.

Sorry, not true that we can live without the FISTF. In a country like Spain with 200 players, with a calendar and a well organized activity dataO, the world remains a nice place to uncover ...

I am very surprised to read the reviews when assigned tournaments or world championships .... you did a calculation where these competitions have been played in the last 10 years? And remember why we made an extraordinary congress in Frankfurth? For the previous board did not convene a congress!!

I'm waiting for the extraordinary congress, but do not expect now that Catania is the "dictator" and the rest are all little angels....

Feliz Navidad.

Piero

Piero, are you really blind?
You say I was working alone? Sorry but it was not true. I was maybe doing much but not "al alone". I could count on a Board of honest people (Heinz, Thossa, Fred did a lot - despite their work was always underestimated - and some people like Freddy could not only work well, they had their say in decisions).
I didn't go to Italy to watch the italian league because I already knew what I would see there: many teams in a big hall playing great games with nice club jerseys. And what? It's just like the belgian league but with more players and a bigger hall and table that are all the same. Sorry but what would I learn from it? The day any other country will have 40 or 60 clubs, the same tournaments might be organized the same way, not in countries with 3 or 4 clubs...
About the fact a new association could live without some nations, it's totally possible. If a new association does not have Italy, Malta or Greece or Spain as members, it doesn't mean greek, maltese, italian and spanish players will be prevented to play tournaments in Belgium, France or Finland... We are people who care about the players, not about politics.
Where the tournaments have been held over the last 10 years: very easy anser. There were held were there were candidates to organize events!

I'm waiting for the extraordinary congress, but do not expect now that Catania is the "dictator" and the rest are all little angels....

At least, despite I'm not perfect, I'm proud to say I'm not a liar and cheater but a honest person who has always done his best for the game without thinking about my personal interests. I can say the same about people like Fred, Thossa, Heinz, Freddy, Vesa, Luis, Olivier Père,... but not about some other people.

for kechris:

How easy to forget the past.

The reasons why we come to a conference in Frankfurt are exactly the same why I do not believe the opposition's bid to Catania.

Nobody wants to grow the game. Only relevant calendar, results and ranking. Nothing more.

We had to introduce a rule to force people to wear a shirt. no jeans ..... anyone from that group interested in our game a sport.

And by the way these people are the same as Vincent left all alone

If so personally I would still be working on the board of Vincent.

In Greece have been invited to attend the Total Soccer Christmas Cup and I have met all morning on Saturday with George Papas of Giochi Preziosi.

Obviously not know all the thoughts of all the players in Greece but in the two days I have been there in a fantastic play center, unique in the world, I have seen and spoken with people from 6 different clubs. I do not share the style of Leonidas, and I've said in the visit, but it is clear that much work behind and in the end the work gets results.

Again mine is a sensation, not the truth.

Piero

for panagios:

Every day a new insult,

I have given today's fascist.

I hope my grandparents partisans dead hand of the fascists in World War II, they do not rise from his grave.

Call fascist who disagree with you is very democratic..... your philosophers have given us a different concept of democracy by luck.

I have expressed an opinion: "I think if it gets to vote in Greece Koutrumanos probably win again. " This is a fascist?

These positions are extreme and insulting to the base of FISTF problems.

Take this opportunity to remind the board of Catania (I remember that I'm not in it and I'm the developer of the new Special Congress) was elected democratically.

But it is easy to forget the democratic process does not matter.

Piero

Did I talk about FISTF?
please do not insult the forum's readers intelligence. Do not twist my words. I said that whoever does not respect democracy is a fascist. Is this a lie? no. I said that whoever legitimates such people is worse than a fascist. Is this a lie? no.

Therefore, be insulted as much as you like if you are either of the two kinds.

PS: The principles that my family and my education gave me taught me that nothing is above the law. Therefore, someone that puts himself above the law is to be condemned. Since you mention our Philosophers , you will be amazed to find out that in Ancient Greece even the best were driven to exile when they tried to take over the leadership with undemocratic means.

Piero, i'm sorry but i don't think like you.
You see it out of the national view, but out of FISTF's view, I already showed the numbers here on the forum, the italians are not dominating only one category in FISTF ranking.
Of course the italians were very good for most events they visited because they have a high level and most of the people are really nice for the organizers, because they live table soccer as sport. Even that was cancelled by the board, when they decided to cancel the qualification over WR for the EC. They didn't think about the consequences, have a look on the numbers of italian players and teams at the first events of the season and compare it with previous years, then you will see the consequence of that decision.
Out of that view, I fear FISTF already has to live without the big numbers of italians at the FISTF events, because we only will see them at the WC, the EC and maybe at the Majors.

I can only compare your views here with something from soccer. You say the italian and spanish association are so strong that they don't need international events. It would be the same like the FA would say, our league is strong enough we don't need UEFA anymore or UEFA would say on the other side the austrian soccer league is too weak, we don't need Austria as a member anymore, if they don't want to be member.

You have wrong ideas of FISTF. FISTF is not responsible to manage the national game or to manage the national circuit, FISTF also don't have to tell associations what they have to do. FISTF is only responsible for international matters. The insurance issue is the best example for that. Of course FISTF can ask for an insurance, but that's only amateur nonsense as long as we don't have first aid for an example. They ask an insurance from the organizer in case something happened, but they don't ask to have a medical center at the venue to help if something happens.
Maybe you can explain the logic of that to me?
Maybe you can answer me, why the organizers need a liability insurance, but FISTF don't care if the players are health insured!?
Does anyone in FISTF BoD care about it, if all countries have a public health insurance?
That could bring much bigger problems for a player if he gets ill abroad and has to go to hospital without health insurance. That's not important, but the liability insurance of the organizer is important, that's only nonsense sorry.
Does anyone check if the safety regulations are respected? In case they are not, there isn't only one assurance company existing to pay only 1 cent, even if you own an insurance policy.
Who cares about that?
FISTF should spend more time to think about preventive actions, instead of asking for a cover after the worst case already happened, don't you think?
So we are talking about a pro forma action of the board, because they heard anywhere that something like that is existing so we need that too, only to LOOK professional, but there are many other steps which need to be done before in my opinion.
I don't comment the greek happenings anymore as long as we don't know the final decision, but it would be too easy to make only new elections and then continue like nothing happened. I also don't know if things in Greece are running well, having seen the confusion about the greek FISTF events make me doubtful.

I don't have any personal problem with anybody, so if I'm part of the problem, somebody else maybe has a personal problem with me, I don't know that. I only have a problem if people who don't respect any rule ask for an insurance and tell organizers to cancel tournaments, that's a big problem for me. If they would do things in a proper way (undependent if I agree on it or not) they can come and ask something like that from me, but not in that case. Ónly to be FISTF president is not enough.

I don't want to attack somebody, but I think we all can see the current situation, and I also think that many people are not happy in the current situation. The question is, if we want to continue with Italy and some other countries in the current unsatisfying situation or if we want to continue wihtout Italy and some others in a better situation, if those countries want to refuse the wish of the majority asit seems. Of course I would prefer it to continue with ALL nations in a better situation. If that's not possible the responsible people have to decide what's the best option. Something which is clear and, that should also be clear for you Piero, is, if some people decide to create a new "FISTF" I'm sure in most big countries we will see a national split too.

Only 1 question beside. Who says that Austria wants to leave FISTF?

About the big events I only can say that the events took place in many different countries in the last 10 years, in the moment when countries like Spain or Portugal or Malta or Greece requested an event, they got it in nearly all cases, so please stop playing the card of the wrongfully treated countries from the south of europe.
When we asked for a new major after the end of elbeuf, I preferred a spanish major in fall, but there was nobody ready to make that event, so we had to take London and after that Amsterdam, there was no candidate from Greece too. So please don't talk about things when you haven't been involved in any FISTF work yet at that time.
Some people may think whatever they want from me, but I never worked for the benefit of my association or club or even my own, I'm not sure if the people who are acting right now can say the same.

hope you had a merry christmas and I wish you a happy new year :-)

Heinz

pierocapponi wrote:There are some things I've learned in the past year.:

- The only major country is Italy. Italy can live alone we do not.

- There are countries where table football is growing . others where it is disappearing. To deny it is a crime.

- Require that partnerships are legally recognized in their countries and who have insurance for their events is very normal if you want to grow.

- That Koutromanos in Greece, when re-vote, will win the election because hare an good job. (en Greece, repite).

- All this confusion was born because 99% of people in football-player table. Players are only interested in three things: schedule, results and ranking. Other issues of interest only to 1 %.... that we who write in this forum.

- If, tomorrow, Finland, Austria, Germany, Holland and Belgium go FISTF the problem is theirs and not the FISTF. Mattesburg sure you want to play a champions in Italian? Oliviere sure you want to organize a tournament in Mons without Italian, Greek and Spanish? Sure Eric wants to play a World Cup if Bertelli, Bolognina, Flores, Gauci, Cremona, Bais, etc. ..don't play?

- think we have an obligation to be together, to set aside personal problems (95% of FISTF problems are personal problems) and to search solutions.

- Pride has historically done more damage than oil.

- Spain where Italy will always want to go. At least while I am president of the AFM.

Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año 2011.

Piero

for Vincent

I have a lot of work this morning.

At least Vincent and not insulting me!

Vincent, you and I are always under 80% of things.

The other 20% is the vision we have totally different. My fault and my responsibility was not trying to convince you that there is another vision. Sorry.

I also feel that you have not digested a painful defeat and probably unfair, but democratic.

In the past 3 years have you worked on your own, you told you, only with the collaboration of Heinz. And Fred, who had but a different role.

I have never doubted your honesty, in fact when I bring evidence argue otherwise, but I do for others.

Today seems to have many partners, we'll see when working and not writing on a forum, where they are.

A hug.

Mr Capponi, when you write something you should also be ready for critisism. You expect to write something and then stop the conversation because you have nothing to say? If you are such a person then please stop talking for things you do not know/do not understand/do not wish to understand. Then, you can talk about unprovoked attacks and nonsense of the short.

Have a happy new year

for panagios

I graduated in political science, have studied some history.

The law says that a person is innocent until proven guilty, and also there are several levels of JUSTICE to reach a final decision.

Also in Greece.

Piero

(Spanish or Italian in this discussion would be more interesting, I do not have your level of English)

???????????? Sorry?

L I'm only discussing here yet !!!!!

I have always put my face on this. What I can not stand are the insults.

Piero

Why are you insulted? you express your opinion about a person. This person has been ruled in the first degree to have broken the law of a country. You know this. Therefore you make your choice. You are an adult and should have already learned all this. Since you are a very good businessman (I can see this from your products) you should know better that laws are sacret. If I were you, I would wait for the second degree ruling of the Greek court. To say that you believe that he will win the elections is like saying that you think that the ruling will be in his favour or that the Greeks should vote for him because you, in a couple of days, saw his good work when others don't. You know this is utter crap.

My level of Spanish is unfortunately at the same level of your English.
I have a BA in Management , a BA in Mathematics and an MSc in Econometrics, but I fail to see the point of discussing our credentials in this forum.

We are in a world like this. When a few people organize a putsch like what happened in Frankfurt, it is "normal", even if the new president is someone who has been to court because he stole money from his former employer (!!!!) and we don't have the right to blame him because this is "blackmail".

And when the same people get a request from an EGM, which has to be held in the next 3 months, it's normal to hear the meeting will just be a "meeting" (not an EGM) held in ... june (!!!) in Greece (!!!).

PS: let's remind everyone it's forbidden to use the word "mafia" in any conversation, you might be suspended by Silvio Mussolini (oh sorry, Catania)...

Vincent!

Look, I do not agree with the response of Catania and I told him he has to convene an extraordinary congress in three months. The same has said De Francesco.

Panagios

our preparation and our knowledge of the language tells us that in your first speech, I've called a fascist.

Let's not play with words. If you do, you write in Greek, I write in Spanish and both use the google Traslator