Re: Europa League: for or against?

Heinz Eder Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 am

To Stefano
World Cup organizer doesn't need to be a member of FISTF.
When Malta hosted the World Cup they were in the same situation Denmark was. They hadn't paid membership fees for several years, but the FISTF Board handled the problem by reducing the financial support.
Unfortunately some people in Malta forgot that fact or maybe didn't know when they put pressure on the danish organizers.
Les Herbiers, very nice to reach by driving 3 hours from the airport of Paris, I don't know if Les Herbiers even has 8.000 citizens.

Heinz

Thossa Thu May 06, 2010 10:22 am

zinga wrote:Well, I think Leas Herbiers WC really was a well organised and great tournament! Lets hope Rain will be also.

The WC in Les Herbiers was a Laurent-Garnier-Show. Thanks to him FISTF was able to have in first place a World Cup in 2007, because he stepped into the breach (for all of us). That deserves a lot of respect, as well as he was able (thanks to a lot of money in his back) to prepare a good ambience, new tables and a public image. But here ends the respect. A respect he missed to the former BoD in a bad way. And by the way, the tournament managament was a desaster. Just ask Heinz as that responsable Sports Director at that time.

The Rain WC will be an enjoyable event and good organised like in 2006, but it can not be a spectacle the provisional FISTF BoD probably wants wish to see. I only can admonish the provisonal Sports Director to stop demeaning the germans generally. If he continunesly do this, he demage not only his reputation. I hope the narrow-mindedness will ends very soon.

Heinz Eder Thu May 06, 2010 10:56 am

There was a mistake in the barrage, because the organizer didn't use the guidelines for tournaments, so we had to change things, the result was a delay.
We had big discussions before the event about the system in Veteran's category for an example, because Laurent wasn't ready to play in 8 groups of 5 with 40 players.
The other thing which would be much more improvement for a World Cup was that Laurent had a stuff of referees, who didn't play, but I don't understand till today, why he didn't use those referees (16 referees) to referee at least the last 2 rounds (half-finals and finals in all individual categories). That would be the first step in the direction of having undependent referees at the World Cup. That would be the most positive aspect beside the perfect show Laurent organized in Les Herbiers.

Heinz

Thossa wrote:
zinga wrote:Well, I think Leas Herbiers WC really was a well organised and great tournament! Lets hope Rain will be also.

The WC in Les Herbiers was a Laurent-Garnier-Show. Thanks to him FISTF was able to have in first place a World Cup in 2007, because he stepped into the breach (for all of us). That deserves a lot of respect, as well as he was able (thanks to a lot of money in his back) to prepare a good ambience, new tables and a public image. But here ends the respect. A respect he missed to the former BoD in a bad way. And by the way, the tournament managament was a desaster. Just ask Heinz as that responsable Sports Director at that time.

The Rain WC will be an enjoyable event and good organised like in 2006, but it can not be a spectacle the provisional FISTF BoD probably wants wish to see. I only can admonish the provisonal Sports Director to stop demeaning the germans generally. If he continunesly do this, he demage not only his reputation. I hope the narrow-mindness will ends very soon.

Janus_Gersie Thu May 06, 2010 11:12 am

De Francesco wrote: Vincent, Thossa and Gersie are on this forum just to criticize because today are no longer on the board.

Stefano, I was never part of the former board.
I was one of the hardest critizisers of the old board (especially in the hellenic issue) over the last years. I was never an unquestioning supporter of the former board. Just ask Alan !

I would like to bring one sentence back in your mind:
I don't ask what FISTF can do for me. I am doing a lot for FISTF. And I will continue. The work I have done gives me the right to speak out some facts clearly. That's it.

There are some important differences between me, Thossa and Vincent. I don't understand that you think we three are all in one boat ???????? I think it is your lack of knowledge of some important facts.
If you would like to close this gap you can reach me nearly every time.
My mobile no. is +49 172 697 60 39, my home no.: +49 6732 3921

Janus

Janus_Gersie Thu May 06, 2010 11:52 am

The Rock wrote:As for gersie , the president of the 40 players i want to tell him not to make fun and insult our nation by marking our name with black letters. With 150 existing players and many fantastic tournaments it is certain that we know better than him.

Insulting by marking ? Sorry, it wasn't my intention to insult. I just wanted to know an opinion of the seven countries, but especially of the three marked.
But I am interested in knowing from whom you got the number of our members ????? When I count our members I come to a totally other number ....

Janus Gersie

**Admin** Thu May 06, 2010 11:59 am

There are 61 in the world rankings and not all german players are in the world rankings. Very Happy

panagios Thu May 06, 2010 12:30 pm

I would suggest everyone calm down because we are not that many and I believe that we can find a solution to any problem and because we are living in times of division and tension that do not belong to sports, do not arise from sports and therefore should never find place in sports.

Guest Thu May 06, 2010 3:26 pm

I am grateful to the people "outside" the controversy between the old and the new board their interventions. They are more sensible and coherent than those of managers.

To make people understand and think about the "marketing" I do not think Les Herbies was a good world cup.

Of course it was perfectly organized, I know perfectly, but as I said to Laurent that organization deserved a more important type scenario Paris. A city big and easier.

The main problem I have every day is to convey to the people who run the football table is not to think as players.

Think like viewers, such as mass media, such as Eurosport. Explain the editorial director of Eurosport where is Les Herbies or where is Rain is hard.

For me the important tournaments must play in major cities. The event "difficult" in cities easier.

The best site for the Europa League? Brusselas and Paris.

I think that a Champions League to 24 and Europe (hopefully a Coca Cola League, or a Hard Rock League, or League Pofibase, or Astrobase League) to 16 may be a more realistic picture of the movement.

I also believe that many people have not understood the changes. Be re-explain.

A hug.

Piero

Heinz Eder Thu May 06, 2010 3:47 pm

Piero, of course it is your job to think like that, you are the marketing director of FISTF.
I only have 2 questions, I will answer them as I think they should be answered, if it is wrong please correct me.

What does the board plan to do, in case there are only 19 registrations for the champions League?
The board has to take another 5 teams, which normally should play the Europa League.

What does the board plan to do, in case there are 25 registrations?
The board has to take another 3 teams, which normally should play the Europa League.

In both cases you are going to loose teams for the Europa League, or the system of Champions League won't be really attractive to organize. Both questions can be asked for the Europa League too, in the end it easily can happen that the Europa League won't be played with 16 teams, because no more teams are left, or you play the Euro League with 7 italian teams out of 16 then.

You can't plan the number of teams, because you never know the number of registrations that's the problem when the board tries to organize two undependent events on the same week-end. I don't want to say that it can't work one day, but in my opinion the time isn't right for something like that, you first need more teams, clubs and players, this is the first step to reach the goal of the board to have 2 events one day, like Stefano would like to.
It won't help to find international companies for a competition where only 3 countries are represented in a starter field of 16 teams, that's my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, then please correct me.

Heinz

pierocapponi wrote:I am grateful to the people "outside" the controversy between the old and the new board their interventions. They are more sensible and coherent than those of managers.

To make people understand and think about the "marketing" I do not think Les Herbies was a good world cup.

Of course it was perfectly organized, I know perfectly, but as I said to Laurent that organization deserved a more important type scenario Paris. A city big and easier.

The main problem I have every day is to convey to the people who run the football table is not to think as players.

Think like viewers, such as mass media, such as Eurosport. Explain the editorial director of Eurosport where is Les Herbies or where is Rain is hard.

For me the important tournaments must play in major cities. The event "difficult" in cities easier.

The best site for the Europa League? Brusselas and Paris.

I think that a Champions League to 24 and Europe (hopefully a Coca Cola League, or a Hard Rock League, or League Pofibase, or Astrobase League) to 16 may be a more realistic picture of the movement.

I also believe that many people have not understood the changes. Be re-explain.

A hug.

Piero

Guest Thu May 06, 2010 5:09 pm

Henize, we have to take risks, is something you do when something new.

In an ideal situation, the Champions would play 32 teams (31 + the winner).

I think the answer to your question is simple:

- If only available in 19, played in 19 Champions League.

- If you write 25 plays in 25.

And the Europe league? For this first year, maybe we are talking about a bet, perhaps risky, but I think important, fundamental even exciting to try.

Will be only 8 teams? played in August. Will be 11? 11.

But if we think the next edition (2011-2012) discover that (as an example, I have assessed the value of each team from each country):

Austria: Wiener Mattesburg and play the Champions and 78 Royal the Europe.

Belgium: Stembert, Hennuyers, JSC Rochefort and the Champions League and Rochefort, Charleroi and Templeux the Europe.

England: Yorkshire Español Premiere League and the Champions League and Kent and White Star the Europe.

France: Issy the Champions League and Elbuef the Europe.

Germany: Sparta the Champions and Dortmund the European.

Greece: Falcons and Roligans the Champions, and Atlas and Olympia the Europe.

Italy: Perugia, Reggio, Pisa and Napoli the Champions League and Milan, Bologna, Urbino and Roma the Europe.

Malta: Hammrun in Champions League and Attard the Europe

Netherlands: Delft the Champions and Rijnmond the Europe.

Scotland: Hot Club in the Champions League and Glasgow the Europe.

Spain: Murcia and Turia in Champions and Tiburones and Madrid the Europe

would have:

so in the Champions League to 20 teams (teams would have to add the Czech Rep, Denmark, Finland, Gibraltar, Monaco, Norway, Switzerland and Wales)

and 19 in Europe.

Utopian? Some might say that this equipment do not travel, not go .. etc etc ... I think that this makes the Champions League is nice and balanced and Europe ... well.

Teams like Milan, Bologna, Sharks, Charleroi, Rochefort, Royal 78 etc. have many opportunities to reach semifinals or even win a European competition.

And smaller teams to play more as a competition of its possibilities.

I hope I explained better.

NATION TEAMS
AUSTRIA 3
BELGIUM 3
CZECH REPUBLIC 1
DANMARK 1
ENGLAND 2
FINLAND 1
FRANCE 1
GERMANY 1
GIBRALTAR 1
GREECE 2
ITALY 4
MALTA 1
MONACO 1
NEDERLAND 1
NORWAY 1
PORTUGAL 2
SCOTLAND 1
SPAIN 2
SWITZERLAND 1
WALES 1
31

Piero

Thossa Thu May 06, 2010 5:11 pm

@ Piero
From your point of view, isn´t it better to play a "FISTF Champions League" with a lower number of teams (10 or 12), qualified over the member nation associations (only the team champions of the countries plus a title-holder). OK, I know, FISTF have more then 10 member nations, but a ranking could help to select the best 10, incl. the substitutes).
Finally the "FISTF Euro Cup" needs actually no qualification. Every team could register with one team. No limit for nations. The fixure schedule could be announce after registration deadline with a focus on playout of a final ranking.

One tournament for presentation of the creme de la creme (for the medias)
One tournament for the masses (quasi almost like as it is)

Guest Thu May 06, 2010 5:30 pm

Thossa

What you propose, in practice, is the old model of the Champions League and UEFA.

This idea is good but I see three main problems:

Yet, at the level of marketing, it's good "sell" a broader base of teams and countries. The ideal would be a Champions League with one team from each country to give an idea truly international.

To reach a "master" team need to consolidate the number of teams in many countries. If I had 10 active teams in each country (number difficult unless Italy and Belgium) your idea would have more force.

There is also the risk that the second competition ... be transformed into a Italian championship. And that provided for sponsors and a half is not good.

I would link the possibility of participating to the Champions League in the country only if there is a link. Countries on hard eg a single computer (Monaco, Gibraltar) or without National League (Malta?, Portugal?, Denmark? Finland?) Can participate only to the Europe Cup

I repeat, always from the viewpoint of marketing.

Piero

Thossa Thu May 06, 2010 5:55 pm

Isn´t it easier to grow reputation in medias and among the sponsors in a smaller version of "Champions League"? I mean, if you think a large number of teams is better, you can still use the "Euro Cup" for selling bases. At the last Major of Mons we had eight italians teams in the competition and nobody takes cares of it. There were 45 teams (incl. 2nd and 3rd teams of the clubs). That was something like an inoffical Euro Cup anyway Wink

Guest Thu May 06, 2010 6:02 pm

Of course, for that reason the Majors are one of the "products" that we are promoting. And for that reason we get too heavy in relation to on some basic rules of coexistence sports.
This is discussed with Oliviero in Amsterdarm. Must help us if we want to attract the attention of the media.
We are betting Europsort very strong and we expect good news soon.

kechris Thu May 06, 2010 6:04 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Thossa

What you propose, in practice, is the old model of the Champions League and UEFA.

This idea is good but I see three main problems:

Yet, at the level of marketing, it's good "sell" a broader base of teams and countries. The ideal would be a Champions League with one team from each country to give an idea truly international.

To reach a "master" team need to consolidate the number of teams in many countries. If I had 10 active teams in each country (number difficult unless Italy and Belgium) your idea would have more force.

There is also the risk that the second competition ... be transformed into a Italian championship. And that provided for sponsors and a half is not good.

I would link the possibility of participating to the Champions League in the country only if there is a link. Countries on hard eg a single computer (Monaco, Gibraltar) or without National League (Malta?, Portugal?, Denmark? Finland?) Can participate only to the Europe Cup

I repeat, always from the viewpoint of marketing.

Piero

I wrote before months my idea and i think Pierro that you agree with me. Champion league with the 12-16 top class teams are perfect.
Thossa's proposal for free number of teams in UEFA is wrong. Pierro has right that uefa cup will look like italian cup.
But i cann't understand Pierro which is your problem if some federations have not national league. Every country-federation will select the representer clubs for both europa cups. This is national problem no international.

If you close the "door" and stop many (more than 6) italian clubs take part in Europa cups then will stop all the italian clubs transfer many foreign players. Because now about 33% of members of Italian teams are not Italian citizens!!! Look at last Europa cup. I respect more Stella Artois and Pisa which are 100% italian teams.

You have yet 4 months to prove that you have good ideas. You spend 3 months with closing forum and a wrong proposal for keepers.

SergLoureiro Thu May 06, 2010 6:27 pm

I repeat again my opinion, the Europa League will be a big mistake, i really ask all FISTF BOD to think better about going ahead with this idea. Piero, i don't agree with your view about Europa League, you've good intentions but in this case i'm more than fear it'll be a failure as Zinga said before.
I give you some points i think are against a competition like this:

- Absolutely no attractive tournament
- With all respect, low teams level
- No teams will be interested to spend money to play a poor competition
- I really think the motivation to play will be down, i belive ALL teams have the ambition to play with/against the best ones and assist a good week-end of table football with the best players in the world.
- Finally, i put you a question, why more than 40 teams go every year to play Major Mons or Major Bologna? I can give you my answer, just because they'll find the best teams and players in the world, this is the most important for the people, i mean, motivation to play with the best ones in our game, motivation to learn and grow up with them, an extra stimulation. This is absolutely not the correct time to create a competition with this kind of format. And yes, i prefer stay at home instead to play Europa League, i'll be no motivation, no pleasure, no fun playing this event.

Guest Thu May 06, 2010 6:30 pm

Kostas,

I have not got four months to prove anything. I work for the good of football table every day. for FISTF for the AFM and the Madrid Total Soccer. If I never candide or I would vote to do so exactly the same.

I do not work or communication or sport.

I work in a very funny, "marketing."

Work on the new style guide (which is ready and will be presented this month), about the search for sponsors, on presentation tools for associations on technical sponsorship agreements (such as Kappa), relationships with producers , in support of associations and clubs which promote the children, and assist in the creation of a working group to organize our own referees. I also work in the approval.

I also work to raise our game for the dignity of a sport. To explain to everyone that the point 1 of a marketing program ourselves, as we move into the tournament and the institutional time.

My main job is to understand people who have more than 40 years we're not playing in garages Subbuteo.

The table football is great and gives to all types of players .. but we want to play the greatest international competitions (which are a minority) do think that is a sport.

It is more difficult to retransmit table football on Eurosport.

A greeting.

Piero

kechris Fri May 07, 2010 12:39 am

SergLoureiro wrote:
I give you some points i think are against a competition like this:
and i wll give you my comments

- Absolutely no attractive tournament Maybe more attractive because more teams in the same level
- With all respect, low teams level very democracy opinion. tournaments only for top class
- No teams will be interested to spend money to play a poor competition
poor competition?!!! why? in the same place with champion league. Which teams told to you that no interesting to take part in E.League?
- I really think the motivation to play will be down, i belive ALL teams have the ambition to play with/against the best ones you believe in wrong things and assist a good week-end of table football with the best players in the world.
so if we cann't find good players for opponents you propose we stop playing table soccer!!!
- Finally, i put you a question, why more than 40 teams go every year to play Major Mons or Major Bologna? I can give you my answer, just because they'll find the best teams and players in the world, this is the most important for the people, i mean, motivation to play with the best ones in our game, motivation to learn and grow up with them, an extra stimulation.
No, people prefer Mons and Bologna because can see MORE players and teams. And more clubs and players select Majors because they can gain more points in Ladder.
This is absolutely not the correct time to create a competition with this kind of format. And yes, i prefer stay at home instead to play Europa League, i'll be no motivation, no pleasure, no fun playing this event.
I make a bet that if Bologna Tigers qualify the next year in Europa League you will be the first who will book tickets.

SergLoureiro Fri May 07, 2010 1:01 am

Kostas, first of all, as usually, i respect your opinion, you have your view of this competition, we're here to discuss. Europa Cup, at this moment, has no conditions to be a successful event, probably some more people think as me and some other people think that will be a really good idea.
One thing i'm sure, about your bet, Bologna Tigers is qualified for Europa League and i can guarantee you right now, i'll not take part in something i really don't believe.

Guest Fri May 07, 2010 8:14 am

I am sure that the first editions of EuropaLeague will be more difficult. I think it is important to create conditions to play for clubs at all levels.
I don't think that our attention should be focused only on most important tournaments with the best teams.
The development of our movement must begin from the base.

I remember the same comments in Italy when we decided to create the Cadets Italy Cup. Today the Cadets Italy Cup is a very important tournament and much loved by the club.

I remember really fierce criticism when I decided to create serie C and after Serie D. Piero will remember these criticisms. These people said that nobody would have chilometres to play games with weak teams. Instead it was the knowledge of an equal level of play with opponents who made the success of these events.

In a movement like ours don't exist strong teams and weak teams but only teams with different skill.

We make the difference in ability of clubs a strength, not weakness.

I am Chairman of a football team that deals with young people. The idea I took from here. Several small teams are not even enrolled in Championship knowing that teams have to face are teams of a higher level. No one is more cruel then children who play for fun. The league decided to split the leagues and teams have tripled within five years.

Also playing with players at your level or slightly exceed create conditions to improve. Playing with players of a higher level that make you 10 goals talking with friends is humiliating and removes the desire and commitment to grow our movement.

We must increase the base of our movement.

Thossa Fri May 07, 2010 8:36 am

As player on a lower level: If I want to play a team-tournament with strong teams, I just have to travel to Major-Tournaments. No problem. In group stages one top-team is guaranteed.

I played the last EC in Tournai and I must say I enjoyed it, but I don´t need it to play it (the last one before was in Gembloux!). It is just a privilege to take part with a qualified team from my country. That´s all.

In Tournai I enjoyed to play with top teams, with weak teams, a competition different than the other FISTF tournaments. What do we need more?

**Admin** Fri May 07, 2010 8:42 am

If you want to play a team event with weak teams, play Satellites :-)

Guest Fri May 07, 2010 8:45 am

Thanks for your intelligent contribution to the debate.

panagios Fri May 07, 2010 9:08 am

I believe that this sport suffers from
a) too many "international" tournaments that should not even be called international but "tournaments that give points for the WR". Make these few and meaningful and many more will spend money to travel to participate.FISTF can also hold "amateur" tournaments for newcomers or weak players like myself. These could be used as a very good promotion opportunity in each country. 1 per year with TV and press coverage, trophies etc.
b) too less emphasis on National Teams encounters and events. These should be a great events and major marketing and publicity tools.
c) too less emphasis on National competitions.
d) too less emphasis on any country outside Europe.

In general I believe that the notion of a ladder in national or international level is total rubbish and should only be used to give rankings to qualifying rounds and nothing more. The sport suffers from a lack of organization in every level and any new idea should be given a shot and should not be rejected beforehand. This sport is at its lowest possible and no idea can bring it even lower.

PS: someone should also make the rules more football like. The rules as they are, are taylor made to help the best players and put barriers of entry to newcomers.

hönkki Fri May 07, 2010 9:34 am

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