Re: OLYMPIA CS complaint

stamy Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:04 am

Dear Stefano (and whoever else),

I agree that players should be members... However three questions as you (and whoever else) seem to be very sensitive to professionalism (this not bad for anyone to be such sensitive, but also he should be unbiased as well:
1) did you ever check this in any tournament you organize or participate? Personally, I travel since 2004 3-4 travells on average and no-one has ever check me... I bet when someone come to Greece noone check him
2) Are you plan to do it? How?
3)Do you think that is fair an old rule to be applied without any warning for all to get involved to be prepared?

P.S.1 This is a huge matter of what is "member" we can discuss it later...
P.S.1 All the following discussion about membership refers to associations in "normal" or "legal" conditions... You all know, however, that in Greece there is a "not normal" condition (I could say illegal, but from respect to Greece justice I wait the final court decision, and say just "not normal" which is under no doubt). Therefore, Greece is not the appropriate field for FISTF to start apply the memebership rule..

von K. Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:46 am

drastis wrote:
von K. wrote:
I'm not sure everybody knew. At least the new people like me. But I see your point. And I know it must be devastating being bullied in a hobby that is supposed to be fun.
I have been writing about the matter for two years, asking for justice. I can't believe that it skipped any frequent forum visitor's attention.

Not everyone is a frequent visitor. And there are always new frquent visitors, like me, who have come to know the problem this year.

drastis wrote:
von K. wrote:
I still would like you and Kechris to see things like De Francesco's question to Catania as positive. I don't know if it's good always to remember everyone's past mistakes and make everyone feel that everything they now do is not appreciated because of the past.

For me it's very positive to see De Francesco, a big figure in TF, saying that he asks questions about this. I know Stefano has faults, but it doesn't change the fact that asking about this from Catania is a good thing. Sometimes things should be judged separately.
I think it is just hypocricy. I have personally addressed de Francesco for at least three times recently and I never got an answer. Mr Catania is close partner of PATFAP "President". He is not going to do anything positive.

Do you think that a person can not change his views ever? Is it the same if a criminal (just an example) says he will do charity work, that you will not even give him the chance to prove that he means it?

I want to see what comes out of it before judging that asking for answers is just theater. I can also have doubts, but for the moment I hope it will do something positive.

I have the right to think that way about people.

drastis wrote:
von K. wrote:I still think this is starting to move to a more positive direction, and a first solution (for the players to be able to play) can be found quite soon.
A solution for the players to be able to play??? This is where we are?? Looking for a solution for the players to be able to play!!!

What is the immediate problem and the main subject of this topic? Yes, finding a solution for people to play. Yes, this is where we are. And I'm not happy about it.

drastis wrote:
von K. wrote:And even a bigger solution (for the "greek affair") after that.
We will find this alone in Greek courts soon, thanks. The question is if we will find a solution for the "FISTF matter", now that the cancer has moved to the head of the body.

When is the court day? Is it possible for them to appeal again? I was talking about a possible solution through the council inside maybe 2 months.

The "FISTF matter" should also be a matter for the council. But I'm not the only member there, so I can't decide which matters are decided there.

I guess you can also contact all national federations officially and ask them to join in a demand for action. forums are not official and I konow many people (also federation presidents) who don't read these.

von K. Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:05 am

stamy wrote:
Let's say Olympia players travell and is allowed to play by the organizers themselves... Imagine some of those situations:

What if one player or team win an important game? I thnik that our opponents may think of doing objections... However what time? During tounrnament creating bad atmosphaire? After the tournament? causing problem of what points to be assigned to the opponents that did any objections? Me and Olympia no WR points.. our oponents?

What if some opponents do objections before our game??? You say to us "sorry guys but I have to get you out of the tournament and now you can visit our city" ???? I really LOVE Berlin and Vienna and other European cities but I LOVE playing table soccer and combining tourism and games...

What if the FISTF objects (sic...) you, as organizers, that if you accept our possible entry your tournament will get no WR points for anyone.... ???? To whom may ask my money for booking a flight to get to a tournament that I will not play?

I think this is not logical from you. The foreigners welcoming you have never checked at least foreign players membership status and will not do it now either. As you yourself said, it's never checked.

So why wouldn't you get the points?

Do you really think that anyone is ready to check all tournaments participants membership statuses from the past years also. Because this is where it would lead. And checking 200 players for that in a tournament is just not possible in amateur game. There would have to be an official FISTF ban for you to do that, and it won't happen.

So I don't see why the good intentions are nonsense.

And, by the way, I don't know what good it does for your cause to almost always attack or snipe the good intentions and the people trying to help. I don't think this game is a job for anyone, so all the time we use for this is from our spare time. I don't think many people are willing to use a lot of their spare time, if all (most) response to good intentions is negative.

I hope for positive developments to happen soon. Rome wasn't build in a day, and this topic has come up only a week ago.

stamy Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:10 pm

[quote="von K."]
I think this is not logical from you. The foreigners welcoming you have never checked at least foreign players membership status and will not do it now either. As you yourself said, it's never checked.

So why wouldn't you get the points? [quote="von K."]

I will not get any points because points are not assigned by organizers, but FISTF authorities. Currently FISTF authorities attack me and my team.. So, it is obvious that no WR points...

[quote="von K."]
Do you really think that anyone is ready to check all tournaments participants membership statuses from the past years also. Because this is where it would lead. And checking 200 players for that in a tournament is just not possible in amateur game. There would have to be an official FISTF ban for you to do that, and it won't happen.

So I don't see why the good intentions are nonsense. [quote="von K."]

Excactly!!!! NOONE is ready to check all tournaments for players membership with the current (non-existing) infrastructure this is what I mentioned in my previous posting...

When I mention that good intentions are nonsense I meant that they have not any substantial result... And recall what I wrote about objections... I may go to play in Vienna for example and my opponent that knows that I wont get any WR point may object to forfeit me.. So, apart from no WR points, there is a great chance that I don't either play my games!! Think of that situation... It is too easy to happen...

von K. wrote:I don't think this game is a job for anyone, so all the time we use for this is from our spare time. I don't think many people are willing to use a lot of their spare time, if all (most) response to good intentions is negative.

However, there are certain persons that prevent me from use my spare time in my beloved game...

Thossa Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:19 pm

It is not up to any tournament management to check the status of players before a FISTF tournament starts, as long as no FISTF BoD explicid gave a directive because of sanctions etc.

Under this point of view some happenings from last weekend are illegal done by the tournament management. It should be a task for the Disciplinary Council to check further steps in view of coming tournaments in Greece against the organisers.

In my opinion, counting together some facts about the way the tournament was running and planned, I have serious doubt about validity as a FISTF tournament in case of WR-points. At the moment we have no Sports Director to decide about it. It´s really a pity!

von K. Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:31 pm

stamy wrote:
I will not get any points because points are not assigned by organizers, but FISTF authorities. Currently FISTF authorities attack me and my team.. So, it is obvious that no WR points...

If you are accepted by the organisers, FISTF can't prevent you having points afterwards. This argument is not based on the rules, but on the fact that if that would happen, this would be demanded for all previous competitions. This would mean an infinite checking job- Also this would mean that as you have got points in previous tournaments, it would mean that it has been allowed before, too. So this common practice can't be changed without a valid reason and official statement.

von K. Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:35 pm

Based on what I read here I have to agree with Thossa about Greece organizing FISTF events at the moment.

Based on this whole affair, I also find it incredible that Greece would be the hosts for the World Cuo 2012. Great marketing for a positive "sport"...

Heinz Eder Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:59 pm

Dear Kostas,
simular things happened last season too. clubs didn't accept that fistf refused a transfer, but they played with that player all over the season -> they didn't get any ranking point for all tournaments where the player played.
Anyway there is still no decision from the FISTF Board done, in the end an organizer of an international open refused your participation because of non paid national fees. For me in Austria it isn't any problem if you paid greek membership fees or not.
FISTF Board has to declare if it is a problem for them, for a tournament in december or even november it is a bit late to come on 15th of september to tell you officially that you are not allowed to play.
Especially as long as FISTF doesn't have membership cards, for me there is no licencing existing, as you said, it is nearly impossible to check all players and clubs if they are licenced by FISTF or the federation.
That's my very personal opinion.

Heinz

stamy wrote:Dear Marcus, Dear Heinz,

Concerning Olympia's players acceptance to your tournaments is what I was expected from you, because I know that you are kind guys.. By the way thanks also to Ken (I bet you are also kind but I don't know you so much!!). Unfortunatelly NI is too far for us indeed, but you never know!!
Of course, I mean my thanks 100% and you know me and you know that... However, I also expected that you could not guarrantee that we would get our WR points.. And you have totally right.. It's not up to you. From my point of view, I can guarrantee that we wouldn't get any points if we were allowed to play...

Actually, I was expected such answers to continue to our (Olympia) matter which can be easily matter for any player or team in the near future..

Let's say Olympia players travell and is allowed to play by the organizers themselves... Imagine some of those situations:

What if one player or team win an important game? I thnik that our opponents may think of doing objections... However what time? During tounrnament creating bad atmosphaire? After the tournament? causing problem of what points to be assigned to the opponents that did any objections? Me and Olympia no WR points.. our oponents?

What if some opponents do objections before our game??? You say to us "sorry guys but I have to get you out of the tournament and now you can visit our city" ???? I really LOVE Berlin and Vienna and other European cities but I LOVE playing table soccer and combining tourism and games...

What if the FISTF objects (sic...) you, as organizers, that if you accept our possible entry your tournament will get no WR points for anyone.... ???? To whom may ask my money for booking a flight to get to a tournament that I will not play?

I could continue to several other "professional" questions in order to show that your kind intentions are sadly nonsense (of course not due to you, but due to the "professionalism" of the current BoD). Actually, your kind intentions seem not applicable at this very season unfortunatelly...

The point is that this "members" thing can lead to serious problems at our game... Many players around the world are not members actually, organizers have not the infrastructure to check the membership status of foreign players, there are players without associations or informal associations and so on....

Heinz Eder Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:04 pm

that's not correct Thossa.
If the board would make licence cards, of course every organizer would have to check it, but as long as we don't have that, the licencing rule is a dead rule for me.

Heinz

Thossa wrote:It is not up to any tournament management to check the status of players before a FISTF tournament starts, as long as no FISTF BoD explicid gave a directive because of sanctions etc.

Under this point of view some happenings from last weekend are illegal done by the tournament management. It should be a task for the Disciplinary Council to check further steps in view of coming tournaments in Greece against the organisers.

In my opinion, counting together some facts about the way the tournament was running and planned, I have serious doubt about validity as a FISTF tournament in case of WR-points. At the moment we have no Sports Director to decide about it. It´s really a pity!

Thossa Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:28 pm

Yes, the license card. That was another big idea from the January´s Congress, but infact they don´t exists and I guess, they will never exist Laughing

Nevertheless, as long as no directive is offical, no tournament or competition manager can kick out any participants because of this non existing license card.

stamy Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:44 pm

And the black-maling thing keeps going and going....

Yesterday late in the evevning we received an e-mail from mr Koutroumanos that inform us that if we don't meet our financial obligations, by a letter, we are not allowed to play in Champion League. The dead-line was today at 13:00 !!!!! The very same time that all players of Olympia are working and don't even communicate each other to make a decision...

Actually, even this very old FISTF rule calls for players membership not meeting any financial obligations... Isn't it ??? So, even this old rule is violated by mr. Koutroumanos which shows any respect to our team and our players. Please I call for FISTF to take a clear position and corrects this irregularity.. This issue of Olympia's entry in Champion League is beyond a national level and FISTF has not any excuse not to intervent and allow Olympia to entry in Champions Legaue

I want to add that the other Greek team that has been nominated from PATFAP (Roligans) has no players members of PATFAP. This is a clear biassness and I can explain the reason:

Olympia's members of PATFAP are the very same persons that are in court due to 2008 elections which we believe they are illegal. Therefore, it is obvious that it is believed that if we meet our financial obligations to PATFAP we may at least inderictly recognize the current BoD status of PATFAP. However, this is a total black-mail and a cheap tactics concerning the appealing the other side has made in the first degree court decision.

Please FISTF gentlemen take a clear position concerning this sick situation...

P.S. If anyone doubts about my saying I can send those e-mails that demand us to meet financial obligations and ask from a Greek friend to translate them or use Google translator...

**Admin** Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:28 pm

Very very sad to read all this... but at the same time it does not surprise me anymore...

wrkl Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:29 pm

Unless this is sorted soon it is a not just a problem for Greece. As I understand it at least 50% of the players expected to enter the next English Open may not be members of their Association. If the Greek example is followed there are two options.

a} You allow anyone to enter and no-one gets any points. Lots of wasted airfares there then!!
b} You start a huge argument in England by refusing entry to some of your most ardent supporters.

It's all very well to say that if they are not members they should not be allowed to play. That argument will not go well with the event organiser who is trying to recoup his costs. He may have neighbours and friends who want to play just this one event who are happy to pay the entry fee but are not prepared to pay the membership fees on top of that for one event.

Not a problem in Wales. We have automatic membership when you enter one of our events.

Heinz Eder Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:48 pm

it will become interesting what the board is going to do with the form 01.
they ask for a list of players of the association.
what they are doing then will be interesting.
do they inform all players and clubs who are not members, that they are not allowed to play FISTF events? do they send out an information to all organizers too?
What will they do with players who can join association only for the month when a tournament takes place? then they will have to write a lot of mails, one if they can not play, then another one when they can play, and then again another one that they can not play. the associations will have more work too. every registered player has to be sent to fistf too and every player who cancels his membership have to be reported too.

come on that's not useable at the moment. don't we have enough order points that we have to discuss about that now? I hope FISTF will clearify that soon and explain that membership in an association is not a must for the season 2010/2011. Most organizers are happy about foreign players who help to pay the hall and the trophies, so please consider that too.

Heinz

wrkl wrote:Unless this is sorted soon it is a not just a problem for Greece. As I understand it at least 50% of the players expected to enter the next English Open may not be members of their Association. If the Greek example is followed there are two options.

a} You allow anyone to enter and no-one gets any points. Lots of wasted airfares there then!!
b} You start a huge argument in England by refusing entry to some of your most ardent supporters.

It's all very well to say that if they are not members they should not be allowed to play. That argument will not go well with the event organiser who is trying to recoup his costs. He may have neighbours and friends who want to play just this one event who are happy to pay the entry fee but are not prepared to pay the membership fees on top of that for one event.

Not a problem in Wales. We have automatic membership when you enter one of our events.

Marcus Tilgner Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:39 pm

de francesco wrote:Players must be part of their national federation.

WHY?

I know, the rule exists, but: why??
Can anybody explain to me why this is necessary?

Anybody should be allowed to play in international tournaments to let the game grow, to give newcomers the possibility to gain their first experiences, to give comebackers the chance to freshen up their memories and possibly get them back to the game, to give John's neighbors the chance to have a nice day Cool

and so on ... UNLESS he/she is suspended by the disciplinary council...

Therefore, what does FISTF need? Name, date of birth, club - that's it...

I hope, I'll never face the day when I'm not allowed to play a tournament because I've forgotten my licence card at home...
With the aim of professionality we're about to destroy everything...

Marcus Tilgner Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:42 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:it will become interesting what the board is going to do with the form 01.
they ask for a list of players of the association.
what they are doing then will be interesting.
do they inform all players and clubs who are not members, that they are not allowed to play FISTF events? do they sent out an information to all organizers too?
What will they do with players who can join association only for the month when a tournament takes place? then they will have to write a lot of mails, one if they can not play, then another one when they can play, and then again another one that they can not play. the associations will have more work too. every registered player has to be sent to fistf too and every player who cancels his membership have to be reported too.

come on that's not useable at the moment. don't we have enough order points that we have to discuss about that now? I hope FISTF will clearify that soon and explain that membership in an association is not a must for the season 2010/2011. Most organizers are happy about foreign players who help to pay the hall and the trophies, so please have consider that too.

Heinz

Thanks Heinz, you saved me a lot of time by writing this... Spot on...!!

**Admin** Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:59 pm

As I said in another in another topic, there is the "letter" and the "spirit" of the rules.

Being a member in theory is a nice idea but it's applyable for a few countries only.

Also, some countries have special rules. In Belgium for instance, a new player has the right to play 2 tournaments in his first season without being affiliated to the association. So if we stick to the "letter", a new belgian player who wants to play his first at the GP of Stembert would not be allowed to play, right?

Sorry but once again, this is RI-DI-CU-LOUS!

Also, what is the credibility for players of very small associations to be 'members'? For instance, how can a player from Northern Ireland say he's a member of his association if the association itself is not "recognized by the government" or something like that.

Australia has been refused as member of FISTF because they don't have enough players and different clubs Shocked

but what the hell is the need to have "something very official" when there are 15 players in the country?

I believe Catania and his gang try to be "more catholic than the Pope" and this situation is really becoming much too ridiculous.

Heinz Eder Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:49 am

One more time things are done without analyzing first.
There wasn't sent any information to the associations about that, so I hope that the greek organizer acted on his own.
It is only important to know, if the president of FISTF agrees on that.

Asking that question here won't bring us an answer, so we need an association to send that question as official request to the FISTF Board.

Heinz

Admin wrote:As I said in another in another topic, there is the "letter" and the "spirit" of the rules.

Being a member in theory is a nice idea but it's applyable for a few countries only.

Also, some countries have special rules. In Belgium for instance, a new player has the right to play 2 tournaments in his first season without being affiliated to the association. So if we stick to the "letter", a new belgian player who wants to play his first at the GP of Stembert would not be allowed to play, right?

Sorry but once again, this is RI-DI-CU-LOUS!

Also, what is the credibility for players of very small associations to be 'members'? For instance, how can a player from Northern Ireland say he's a member of his association if the association itself is not "recognized by the government" or something like that.

Australia has been refused as member of FISTF because they don't have enough players and different clubs but what the hell is the need to have "something very official" when there are 15 players in the country?

I believe Catania and his gang try to be "more catholic than the Pope" and this situation is really becoming much too ridiculous.

kechris Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:39 pm

dkourtis wrote:Dear Sirs,

My name is Dimitris Kourtis and I have been a founding member of PATFAP.

I was elected in the Board and assigned as a Financial Director after June 2008 elections.
Nevertheless, I have been never called to participate in any Board Meetings.
Therefore, the subject of financial irregularities of Clubs [ like Olympia CS], as well as a significant fraction of Greek players overall, are in doubt.

Please, take seriously this fact into account about Olympia's application for an entry in 2010 Champions' League that is gonna take place in Austria.

Thanks a lot in advance.

No comments yet for this post.
The financial director of patfap wrote that patfap is a ghost association. No meetings, no books for members, no yearly fees.
Please give your full attention because we have an objection against patfap.
Two others member of patfap BoD retired for the illegal elections and after they helped us in courts.

I think that is very clear for all to understand that something is going wrong in Greece.

von K. Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:04 am

kechris wrote:
dkourtis wrote:Dear Sirs,

My name is Dimitris Kourtis and I have been a founding member of PATFAP.

I was elected in the Board and assigned as a Financial Director after June 2008 elections.
Nevertheless, I have been never called to participate in any Board Meetings.
Therefore, the subject of financial irregularities of Clubs [ like Olympia CS], as well as a significant fraction of Greek players overall, are in doubt.

Please, take seriously this fact into account about Olympia's application for an entry in 2010 Champions' League that is gonna take place in Austria.

Thanks a lot in advance.

No comments yet for this post.
The financial director of patfap wrote that patfap is a ghost association. No meetings, no books for members, no yearly fees.
Please give your full attention because we have an objection against patfap.
Two others member of patfap BoD retired for the illegal elections and after they helped us in courts.

I think that is very clear for all to understand that something is going wrong in Greece.

According to the post by Kourtis, it seems clear that Olympia CS is a subject for abuse.

It seems also clear that they should be able to participate in the EC.

With the news about the tournament arrangements, it's also clear that it can't be accepted as a FISTF tournament. How could foreign players take part without information until a couple of days before the tournament.

Concerning the illegality (decided in a court) of an association, which is also alleged to be a "ghost" association, it is extremely fishy, that they could apply for, and get, a World Cup.

All of these matters will be brought up by Finland either in the Council, or with an official inquiry to the FISTF. Which one, is not decided yet. It depends also on the developments in the subject.

hönkki Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:56 am

PATFAP president Leonidas Koutroumanos sent an email where he stated that PATFAP is legal.
What is the truth ?

Heinz Eder Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:01 am

He is right. The association is legal, because the statutes are legal.
The only point of conflict is the election of the first board, so the representers of PATFAP are maybe not legal. That has to be decided by the court.

Heinz

hönkki wrote:PATFAP president Leonidas Koutroumanos sent an email where he stated that PATFAP is legal.
What is the truth ?

von K. Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:01 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:That has to be decided by the court.

But, Heinz, there is already a decision by the court. The appeal is made by the (for now) illegal board, so those who the court has decided are right, are still suffering.

We all know that in todays justice system you can appeal for years to come if you have money. The court decision that is the latest has to be accepted until it's maybe reversed.

maxischn Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:06 pm

sadly this is the first communication ever done by the communications director, and the only thing he says is that we should just shut up.....

well i'd say he should just resign from the BoD first and never come back and try to get his own business done, before destroying tablesoccer for the rest of us as they have done within the last few months already

(personal opinion)

Janus_Gersie Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:12 pm

von K. wrote:The court decision that is the latest has to be accepted until it's maybe reversed.

That was exactly the point we already were faced with in late 2008. But the old board didn't want to decide about consequences.

By the way: the court case was in 2009 but at the end of 2008 I was already sure (and proofed it !) about "discrepancies".

Janus

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