OLYMPIA CS complaint

The last weekend was the first time, I guess, that a team and some players were not allowed to play in a FISTF tournament due to financial (???) reasons... Really, gentlemen, has this fact ever happened in any other FISTF tournament?

Beyond the rules, Don't you think that was really sad what was happened?

Beyond rules concerning membership -which is a matter of another discussion- if tournament organizers did want for our team and players to play, they certainly would accept our entry and would remind us -by the way- that we owe some money... But they didn't do that and prefer blackmailing because irrespectively we would accept or not, they would be happy: either we would play under their "rulling" or they would not see us... However, FISTF tournaments are not their private house in order to select who they see and who not...

Beyond the rules, is such behaviour unacceptable from ANY FISTF tournament organizer irrespectively he is president, vice-president or whatever???

Beyond the rules of membership, is this way to promote our game???

Beyond the rules of membership, is this behavior sign of ..professionality???

Please I would appreciate straight reply on these questions and not indirect tactics...

A last comment on this post: beyond the rules of membership, even such rules were violated this week-end.. but I am going to comment on that in another post..

A last question: Given that my team players are not PATFAP members and some other don't pay what we are supposed to owe, we are not even accepted in FISTF events??? We can't, say, play in international tournaments??? For example some of our players were thinking of travelling to Berlin, Brussels and Vienna... So, Marcus (Berlin organizer), Centric (Brussels organizer) Heinz (Vienna organizer), if we come, do you allow us to play ???? And who is officially confirm us that we are going to get the WR points ???? Please, I request a clear answer here...

Of course you are welcome in Vienna.
I'm sorry, but the rest I can't answer.

Heinz

stamy wrote:The last weekend was the first time, I guess, that a team and some players were not allowed to play in a FISTF tournament due to financial (???) reasons... Really, gentlemen, has this fact ever happened in any other FISTF tournament?

Beyond the rules, Don't you think that was really sad what was happened?

Beyond rules concerning membership -which is a matter of another discussion- if tournament organizers did want for our team and players to play, they certainly would accept our entry and would remind us -by the way- that we owe some money... But they didn't do that and prefer blackmailing because irrespectively we would accept or not, they would be happy: either we would play under their "rulling" or they would not see us... However, FISTF tournaments are not their private house in order to select who they see and who not...

Beyond the rules, is such behaviour unacceptable from ANY FISTF tournament organizer irrespectively he is president, vice-president or whatever???

Beyond the rules of membership, is this way to promote our game???

Beyond the rules of membership, is this behavior sign of ..professionality???

Please I would appreciate straight reply on these questions and not indirect tactics...

A last comment on this post: beyond the rules of membership, even such rules were violated this week-end.. but I am going to comment on that in another post..

A last question: Given that my team players are not PATFAP members and some other don't pay what we are supposed to owe, we are not even accepted in FISTF events??? We can't, say, play in international tournaments??? For example some of our players were thinking of travelling to Berlin, Brussels and Vienna... So, Marcus (Berlin organizer), Centric (Brussels organizer) Heinz (Vienna organizer), if we come, do you allow us to play ???? And who is officially confirm us that we are going to get the WR points ???? Please, I request a clear answer here...

The part in the handbook which says that you have to be a member of a national federation to take part in FISTF tournaments has to be deleted immediately. This passage is too powerful in the wrong hands as it has been prooved in the 'German case' years ago as well as in the 'Greek case' now...

Agreed. Anyway, which organizer can really check if foreign players are members of an association or not?

The FISTF circuit should be open to everyone!

Hi Marcus,
I also don't see any reason why I shouldn't welcome players of Olympia in Vienna.
In that special case the rule is much too powerful, but in other situations players are getting too much power without that rule.
We need to find a balance, players should be members of their association, on the other side it shouldn't be the case that players and teams can't play FISTF events.
Maybe those teams or players should be allowed to play FISTF events abroad, but not in Greece for an example.

Heinz

Marcus Tilgner wrote:

stamy wrote:Beyond the rules, is such behaviour unacceptable from ANY FISTF tournament organizer irrespectively he is president, vice-president or whatever???

Beyond the rules of membership, is this way to promote our game???

Beyond the rules of membership, is this behavior sign of ..professionality???

A last comment on this post: beyond the rules of membership, even such rules were violated this week-end.. but I am going to comment on that in another post..

A last question: Given that my team players are not PATFAP members and some other don't pay what we are supposed to owe, we are not even accepted in FISTF events??? We can't, say, play in international tournaments??? For example some of our players were thinking of travelling to Berlin, Brussels and Vienna... So, Marcus (Berlin organizer), Centric (Brussels organizer) Heinz (Vienna organizer), if we come, do you allow us to play ???? And who is officially confirm us that we are going to get the WR points ???? Please, I request a clear answer here...

I remember years ago we had a similar problem in Germany and due to the fact that the association our club was registered in was banned by FISTF at that time, we were not allowed to take part in several international tournaments. Since there had been some organizers who still let us play (many thanks to Jesper, Alfred, David...) we were able to gain some international experience, but our ranking points were deleted.
Having made that experience, I can tell you that you are more than welcome to play the Berlin tournament and I have the honest wish that your ranking points won't be deleted, which obviously I cannot guarantee...
But by having had this situation for more than five years on my own I can give you the promise, just for yourself, taking part in tournament without getting points is far better than staying home and let the 'other side' smile...

Unfortunately the mentioned behaviour of sticking to the rules with the intention to blackmail several persons is probably a sign of too much professionality and is completely against the promotion of our game. The part in the handbook which says that you have to be a member of a national federation to take part in FISTF tournaments has to be deleted immediately. This passage is too powerful in the wrong hands as it has been prooved in the 'German case' years ago as well as in the 'Greek case' now...

Looking forward to seeing you in Berlin ;-)

You would be welcome to play in Ireland, although I know it wouldn't be one of your top priority tournaments.

It makes no sense to prevent players from playing in a 'sport' which struggles to get numbers.

The current FISTF farce does more to deter players than to attract them.
Just look at the FISTF Website and you see circulars about petty power struggles, suspension, arguements, politics, people not being allowed to play etc before you see any nice information/photos/results of tournaments. People are being turned away from the game or put off by what they see and read.

We can do without arrogant attitudes such as "We will have 4000 players before you have 400".
We should be thankful for every ONE extra player that we get!

Players must be part of their national federation.

The Greek situation is complicated and I think the Council needs to understand better the situation.

And what is your understanding of the situation, if I may ask?

ken wrote:You would be welcome to play in Ireland, although I know it wouldn't be one of your top priority tournaments.

It makes no sense to prevent players from playing in a 'sport' which struggles to get numbers.

The current FISTF farce does more to deter players than to attract them.
Just look at the FISTF Website and you see circulars about petty power struggles, suspension, arguements, politics, people not being allowed to play etc before you see any nice information/photos/results of tournaments. People are being turned away from the game or put off by what they see and read.

We can do without arrogant attitudes such as "We will have 4000 players before you have 400".
We should be thankful for every ONE extra player that we get!

As always, well said Ken!

in case things happened like described here, you must also understand that they are not ready to support the association. they are actually in a legal conflict
you also have to understand that some associations aren't even organizing national events all over the season.
Do you think players should pay a membership fee that they are allowed to spend more money to play more often abroad because at home nothing's happening all over the season?

As I said the topic is very difficult in my opinion. You have many different reasons, why some players are not members of an association. If they accept it not to play national tournaments, I also don't see any reason to be member of an association. Maybe the associations need to find a way to licence players for the FISTF tour, but not for the national tour. What service do they get from the association except of national tournaments and FISTF tournaments in the country?
If they are not members of greek association, they shouldn't get the service of national or international tournaments organized in Greece.

de francesco wrote:Players must be part of their national federation.

The Greek situation is complicated and I think the Council needs to understand better the situation.

Thanks Marcus Heinz and Ken for your answers.

Stefano 7 players of Olympia's team are founded members of patfap.
The statutes of patfap don't allow delete members for economic reasons. Only after 3 years if these members don't pay their fee for 3 years. Patfap is 2 years old so none can delete me, Papadopoulos(george), Patrinos S and D, Stamokostas(stamy), Kastellanos and Kourtis.

Yesterday night Falcons inform us that they don't play at champions league in Mattesburg. Before one month koutroumanos sent us an official mail that we are substitute in champions league. Today morning we receive a mail by koutroumanos and he ask by us to be members for to play in champions league!!!!

We want to play in CH.L. but one more time koutroumanos want to stop us. He wants answer (this meaning 2000e) in 24 hours.
I ask the players of rest greek clubs and they told me that they didn't pay fees to koutroumanos. But he allow them to participate in tournaments.

p.s the patfap statutes wants the OK by BoD for a new member. If the BoD say NO to new member then this player cann't play in international tournaments?

Heinz Eder wrote:If they are not members of greek association, they shouldn't get the service of national or international tournaments organized in Greece.

Really Heinz, I can not understand yyour way of thinking! If you want to decide to support one of the two, then it is your right, and then you will have to deal with the concequences of your actions. But if you want to be fair, is what you suggest right? They tournaments are called INTERNATIONAL for a reason!

de francesco wrote:Players must be part of their national federation.

The Greek situation is complicated and I think the Council needs to understand better the situation.

This is the only think you can say? No matter if there is a dictatoriship?
So until the council understands better the greek matter, there will be a number of misfortunate
players who can do nothing, because the community allows them to be "bullied"! Based on a rule which is not even used ANYWHERE in Europe? Is this your solution?

Does anyone wonder why there is no PUBLIC answer from the "other side"? (I do not know what they do "underground") They were more than "fluent"
towards Gersie when he tried to help solving the Greek matter! Conveniently the old forum is down, so we can not refresh our memories!

I will also like to thank Heinz, Marcus and Ken for their "kindness" to allow us to participate in their
tournaments (I KNOW THAT IT SOUNDS AS A JOKE!!!) Sorry to Kari for mispelling his name :-) and thanks to all the Finns for their support! WE really appreciate it!

Sorry for making a proposal
Please don't try to push me on any side.
Maybe the council will help you with a better idea.

georgy wrote:

Heinz Eder wrote:If they are not members of greek association, they shouldn't get the service of national or international tournaments organized in Greece.

Really Heinz, I can not understand yyour way of thinking! If you want to decide to support one of the two, then it is your right, and then you will have to deal with the concequences of your actions. But if you want to be fair, is what you suggest right? They tournaments are called INTERNATIONAL for a reason!

de francesco wrote:Players must be part of their national federation.

The Greek situation is complicated and I think the Council needs to understand better the situation.

This is the only think you can say? No matter if there is a dictatoriship?
So until the council understands better the greek matter, there will be a number of misfortunate
players who can do nothing, because the community allows them to be "bullied"! Based on a rule which is not even used ANYWHERE in Europe? Is this your solution?

Does anyone wonder why there is no PUBLIC answer from the "other side"? (I do not know what they do "underground") They were more than "fluent"
towards Gersie when he tried to help solving the Greek matter! Conveniently the old forum is down, so we can not refresh our memories!

I will also like to thank Heinz, Marcus and Ken for their "kindness" to allow us to participate in their
tournaments (I KNOW THAT IT SOUNDS AS A JOKE!!!) Sorry to Kari for mispelling his name :-) and thanks to all the Finns for their support! WE really appreciate it!

Heinz Eder wrote:Sorry for making a proposal
Please don't try to push me on any side.
Maybe the council will help you with a better idea.

Dear Heinz I do not try to push you on any side, it is not my style anyway.

What you, as well as others, do not understand is this:
BY DOING NOTHING, it is as if you choose a side!!!
Sorry if you can't understand it!
But thanks for the time that you spend on the matter!

I think FISTF BoD must be demanded to take a decision on this. I will ask our federation board if we can do this officially. I think all countries should demand it.

It would be an essential answer (by the BoD) to know what is the future of our sport/game/hobby. If this kind of thing is tolerated, then it's really good night FISTF.

It has now become clear that this will have to be the first issue that the council faces. This is harming the FISTF every day.

I also think that no one answered yet the very essential question by "hönkki" about the legal status of paftap. Is it possible for paftap to keep doing things like before they we're found illegal? Shouldn't there be a suspension until the matter is dealt in a higher court? This situation (illegal, but can continue as before) doesn't meet my sense of justice.

ken wrote:You would be welcome to play in Ireland, although I know it wouldn't be one of your top priority tournaments.

It makes no sense to prevent players from playing in a 'sport' which struggles to get numbers.

The current FISTF farce does more to deter players than to attract them.
Just look at the FISTF Website and you see circulars about petty power struggles, suspension, arguements, politics, people not being allowed to play etc before you see any nice information/photos/results of tournaments. People are being turned away from the game or put off by what they see and read.

We can do without arrogant attitudes such as "We will have 4000 players before you have 400".
We should be thankful for every ONE extra player that we get!

This is hitting the core of the problems in our game/sport/hobby. Well put.

I only said I want to know more about the Greek situation.

Certainly if I have to give me an idea about you, respected the behavior and statements of Kechris about blackmail and other nonsense ........

I think it is important to know the truth. I don't trust the words of people like Kechris.

I sent a request to Silvio Catania to have an official response of the Greek Association on the situation of your club.

Dear Stefano,

de francesco wrote:
Certainly if I have to give me an idea about you, respected the behavior and statements of Kechris about blackmail and other nonsense ........

... to be honest I can not understand what you wrote above.

de francesco wrote:
I think it is important to know the truth. I don't trust the words of people like Kechris.

I sent a request to Silvio Catania to have an official response of the Greek Association on the situation of your club.

I guess this is a good start, and thanks! (even though I doubt about the kind of info that you will get)

I can understand that foreigners might not trust Kechris, because he is very aggressive some times, and his approach (even for me) might get the opposite effect.
But the truth is that he is very passionate, and especially about this matter he is 100% right.
But because he was the only one, I can understand that most of the foreigners thought that he overreacts and says bullshit. That's why after the new episode (in a list of MANY!!! you have no clue...)
of bad treatment of my team or team-mates, we all decided that this is it! Most of us have families and subbuteo is our hobby and we can not bother dealing with lawyers and prosecutions just for our hobby! But on the other hand there is also self respect! And since Kechris might not sound trustworthy to you or others, then I guess, WE, a big number of players who never created a problem in Europe (unlike others!), who have the best relations with many Europeans, I think, WE ARE TRUSTWORTHY!!! Or at least you should take our complaint seriously!


P.S. By the way Olympia wants to participate in EC (taking Falcons place who withdrew). I hope
that we will be accepted!

von K. wrote:I think FISTF BoD must be demanded to take a decision on this. I will ask our federation board if we can do this officially. I think all countries should demand it.

It would be an essential answer (by the BoD) to know what is the future of our sport/game/hobby. If this kind of thing is tolerated, then it's really good night FISTF.

It has now become clear that this will have to be the first issue that the council faces. This is harming the FISTF every day.

I also think that no one answered yet the very essential question by "hönkki" about the legal status of paftap. Is it possible for paftap to keep doing things like before they we're found illegal? Shouldn't there be a suspension until the matter is dealt in a higher court? This situation (illegal, but can continue as before) doesn't meet my sense of justice.

EXACTLY!!!!!

You just summed up everything in your post!!!!

I wish we all had the finnish common sense!

I have followed this conversation since Sunday and for the first time in two years, I feel that people start caring for the problem. For the first time, people outside Greece see this is actually a problem of FISTF.

It is not that people did not know the truth before. EVERYBODY KNEW about the attitude and methods of the illegally elected (according to greek courts) PATFAP "president". EVERYBODY KNEW who's right on this. Even mr de francesco, who now pretends that he has not "understood" the problem, knows very well what is happening in Greece for the last two years.

In my opinion, people are asking for a solution now, not because they just learnt the truth. It is because they now smell the "breath" of this stinking problem on their neck. Since last year Greece has become the testing ground of the tactical weapons FISTF "provisional" BoD plans to use against players in all countries. Mr Catania's partner is the first who willingly applies the "new order" doctrines in Greece, or should I say he teaches his ways to mr Catania?

Enough with all this situation. FISTF nations must take action against injustice, cheating, arrogance and aggresiveness. You all know the truth. Rise up FISTF nations, if you don't act now, you will be next.

It seems that a sort of FISTF license has to be created for those who want to play in FISTF competitions, but are not members of a national federation. The reason for not being a member should be asked before granting a license, but there are many reasons for not being a member.

Examples of good reasons:
1. A national federation doesn't exist.
2. National federation doesn't accept a member.
3. A person lives in a part of the country where the federation doesn't work (possible for example in finnish Lapland with all the others over 800km south).

drastis wrote:I have followed this conversation since Sunday...

I'm not sure everybody knew. At least the new people like me. But I see your point. And I know it must be devastating being bullied in a hobby that is supposed to be fun.

I still would like you and Kechris to see things like De Francesco's question to Catania as positive. I don't know if it's good always to remember everyone's past mistakes and make everyone feel that everything they now do is not appreciated because of the past.

For me it's very positive to see De Francesco, a big figure in TF, saying that he asks questions about this. I know Stefano has faults, but it doesn't change the fact that asking about this from Catania is a good thing. Sometimes things should be judged separately. And this one can be judged when you know what comes out of the question.

I don't know about a bigger conspiracy. But I understand well your frustration.

I still think this is starting to move to a more positive direction, and a first solution (for the players to be able to play) can be found quite soon. And even a bigger solution (for the "greek affair") after that.

de francesco wrote:
I think it is important to know the truth. I don't trust the words of people like Kechris.

No problem Stefano. If you don't trust me we must stop our dialogue. I hope when you learn the truth to apologie to me. I can wait for long time.

Until this time i will trust these words:

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
I hav to say I'm totally disappointed of Stefano that he changed his mind within seconds unfortunately only for the good of his country not for the good of the rules.

Goodnight Stefano. I know that you have friends in Greece. I am sure that they will say to you the truth for the greek situation.

von K. wrote:
I'm not sure everybody knew. At least the new people like me. But I see your point. And I know it must be devastating being bullied in a hobby that is supposed to be fun.

I have been writing about the matter for two years, asking for justice. I can't believe that it skipped any frequent forum visitor's attention.

von K. wrote:
I still would like you and Kechris to see things like De Francesco's question to Catania as positive. I don't know if it's good always to remember everyone's past mistakes and make everyone feel that everything they now do is not appreciated because of the past.

For me it's very positive to see De Francesco, a big figure in TF, saying that he asks questions about this. I know Stefano has faults, but it doesn't change the fact that asking about this from Catania is a good thing. Sometimes things should be judged separately.

I think it is just hypocricy. I have personally addressed de Francesco for at least three times recently and I never got an answer. Mr Catania is close partner of PATFAP "President". He is not going to do anything positive.

von K. wrote:I still think this is starting to move to a more positive direction, and a first solution (for the players to be able to play) can be found quite soon.

A solution for the players to be able to play??? This is where we are?? Looking for a solution for the players to be able to play!!!

von K. wrote:And even a bigger solution (for the "greek affair") after that.

We will find this alone in Greek courts soon, thanks. The question is if we will find a solution for the "FISTF matter", now that the cancer has moved to the head of the body.

Drastis has 100% right.
The FISTF matter is like greek matter before three years.
Dejavu is the perfect word in French.

Dear Sirs,

My name is Dimitris Kourtis and I have been a founding member of PATFAP.

I was elected in the Board and assigned as a Financial Director after June 2008 elections.
Nevertheless, I have been never called to participate in any Board Meetings.
Therefore, the subject of financial irregularities of Clubs [ like Olympia CS], as well as a significant fraction of Greek players overall, are in doubt.

Please, take seriously this fact into account about Olympia's application for an entry in 2010 Champions' League that is gonna take place in Austria.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Dear Marcus, Dear Heinz,

Concerning Olympia's players acceptance to your tournaments is what I was expected from you, because I know that you are kind guys.. By the way thanks also to Ken (I bet you are also kind but I don't know you so much!!). Unfortunatelly NI is too far for us indeed, but you never know!!
Of course, I mean my thanks 100% and you know me and you know that... However, I also expected that you could not guarrantee that we would get our WR points.. And you have totally right.. It's not up to you. From my point of view, I can guarrantee that we wouldn't get any points if we were allowed to play...

Actually, I was expected such answers to continue to our (Olympia) matter which can be easily matter for any player or team in the near future..

Let's say Olympia players travell and is allowed to play by the organizers themselves... Imagine some of those situations:

What if one player or team win an important game? I thnik that our opponents may think of doing objections... However what time? During tounrnament creating bad atmosphaire? After the tournament? causing problem of what points to be assigned to the opponents that did any objections? Me and Olympia no WR points.. our oponents?

What if some opponents do objections before our game??? You say to us "sorry guys but I have to get you out of the tournament and now you can visit our city" ???? I really LOVE Berlin and Vienna and other European cities but I LOVE playing table soccer and combining tourism and games...

What if the FISTF objects (sic...) you, as organizers, that if you accept our possible entry your tournament will get no WR points for anyone.... ???? To whom may ask my money for booking a flight to get to a tournament that I will not play?

I could continue to several other "professional" questions in order to show that your kind intentions are sadly nonsense (of course not due to you, but due to the "professionalism" of the current BoD). Actually, your kind intentions seem not applicable at this very season unfortunatelly...

The point is that this "members" thing can lead to serious problems at our game... Many players around the world are not members actually, organizers have not the infrastructure to check the membership status of foreign players, there are players without associations or informal associations and so on....

If FISTF BoD REALLY want to apply the membership rule, FISTF BoD should, in first, provide to tournament organizers the appropriate infrastructure to check membership status -especially for foreign players- and to clarify actually what is exactly meant by "member", so that this "member" mode to be IDENTICAL across all FISTF association members. I bet, currently, "member" has not the identical meaning across all associations that have formal or informal members (oopp! this is one first different concerning formality...)

This is not proffesional on behalf of FISTF to apply an old rule without any warning, without giving any opportunity to all to get aligne to this rule and without giving a control infrastructure...
This is not proffesional to apply this old rule ONLY to specific teams and players... There are actually another teams and players that are not member and if we, as club and players, continue to face such behavior from table football greek and international authorities, we can reveal such cases in order to display this grate unbiasness...