OLYMPIA CS complaint

Olympia CS Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:12 pm

PLEASE DO US THE FAVOUR AND READ THE FOLLOWING!!! Thank you in advance!!

Unfortunately, one more dark page was written yesterday in the book of the miserable Greek Subbuteo. The “writers”? The same ones. The “victims” ?. The same ones.

This weekend an international tournament was hosted in Greece. The players of our club (Olympia CS) were not allowed to participate in the individual category (veterans) on Saturday, as well as in the teams competition (we had 3 teams, Olympia A, B and C). Because of that we canceled our registrations for the Sunday’s Open category (anyway we would not have the “right” to participate, but at least we did not want for the organizers to find a “reason” to penalize us even more!!! by removing points from the official ranking for not “showing up”!!!).

The reason? We are not “members” of PATFAP (Panhellenic Association of Table Football Amateur Players) or we haven’t paid what we “owe” (some of us, according to the current “management”, owe 230 euros! Since we were the founding members of PATFAP! Ridiculous! Only founding members had the right to vote in the elections. Please see explanation below(*) ).

We said that this is an international tournament not a national one, but they used the excuse that it is in the FISTF rules that in order to participate in international tournaments you have to be a member of a national association. True this is a rule, but FISTF has never enforced this rule (Mr Parnaby and Mr Vulpes replied to a relevant question by saying that), and we are certain that in EVERY international tournament there are players who do not belong in a national association. Why the decided NOW to “discover and use” an old rule? The answer is obvious! To punish us. RIDICULOUS!

They would have “allowed” us to participate if the members of our team would sign a paper to become PATFAP members (need to pay 20 euros once for registration + 20 euros per year) or make arrangement to pay what we “owe” (founding members according to them owe 230 euros)!

We DO NOT TRY TO AVOID PAYING what we might rightfully owe. But for us it is a matter of ethics and self respect that we CAN NOT ACCEPT PATFAP as a legal association under this management. And by becoming members it would be as if we consent.

(*)The current “management” did not allow “selected players”, including a number of our players, to take part in the elections of PATFAP (they send us an SMS 1 day before the elections!) 2 years ago. Funnily enough all these who were banned would not vote for them!!!!! Funnily enough, if they would have voted, the result would have been different!!!!! Since then there was a legal action against them and WE HAVE WON the case in the GREEK COURT but they appealed (obviously in order to gain time and continue having the power) and we are waiting for the case to be processed. Even though we have won they still have the “management”!

Can we become members of the German or the Finnish for example association so that we can at least participate in international tournaments in Greece? At least until the greek court process their appeal? The whole situation is, as you can understand, ridiculous! But it seems that we have to "fight" them, using their tactics.

Are we masochists? We are certain that even if we find a solution to play in the next international tournament hosted in Greece by them, they will probably have another excuse to disallow us from playing, or “treat” us nicely on the tables! We are used to this by now. But still what we really want is to play. And no one has the right to take this from us, finding each time different excuses because we did not "surrender".

It is really SAD to accept that many times during these 2 years we have thought that it might have been better just to do nothing and accept this situation. Just quit (as a few did because they did not have the time and guts to deal with such persons, we can not blame them for sure) or accept them (as other greek teams did, even though they knew what they did was wrong, but they did not bother).

Mr Gersie, Mr Catania, Mr Copenolle, Mr Busing, Mr Hakarainen! Someone! Please tell us what can we do???? Is what we ask feasible?

Please do not allow any more some persons without any ethical limits to bully us!

And even if this is OUR part of the story (as the others will say), still, we believe that we have the right to play!

Thomas Vulpes Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:25 pm

Greece is a problem because of the elections. You can become a member of any other country but not as an club. Because only two foreigners per team. The FISTF the problem in Greece is required to solve. I have only written what is in handbook

We had the problem years ago in Germany, and were even locked for the World Cup

Mike Parnaby Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:32 pm

In normal circumstances, the players from Olympia would have to join the FISTF recognised association in Greece, PATFAP. They could not join another countries association unless they lived in that country.
If however, there is/was dispute over the legality of PATFAP (this may be true, i really don't know the internal politics in Greece), it may be possible for FISTF to grant a licence to play for the Olympia players. What costs would be involved I do not know, but it could be a possible solution until the situation in Greece is settled.

Thossa Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:23 pm

Normally the tournament on this weekend can not be valid as FISTF tournament, only as an friendly tournament under greek players. But this has to be checked anyway. Hopefully we will see as soon as possible a new and independant FISTF Sports Director Wink

to clear the air.

Superficial there is a fact to think of for the Olympia club.

Even when the opponents of Leonidas Koutromanos won on a greek court and obvisiously the current PATFAP-President is not legal, the day will come and a new election will come.

What do you think? If Mr. Koutromanos candidates again will the majority votes for him? If so, nothing will change.

And then what?

von K. Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:26 pm

Comments, again, with the knowledge that is read here and heard from some players. So, not based on rock solid facts.

If this is the reality, I would like to ask mr. Catania, how this works in favour of our games development? We should work together was the message before the WC weekend. Is this working together, and in the best interests of the game?

Also the same question to the other provisional BoD members, for example Stefano, who speaks (correctly, of course) about playstation as the enemy for the game. I would like to hear a clear comment from the people that have been in the provisional board for 8 months, but not ones commented on the situation in Greece.

I don't care if someone has quit the board, if in 8 months there is nothing, then it would be nice to know why, and especially on what facts is the silence decision based on? If you are ok with the situation, then tell everyone what is that decision based on?

It's a clear thing that this is harming the game enourmously. So the FISTF has to react to this in some way.

If a special system would allow it, I'm quite sure that the finnish federation would welcome refugees. Not as finnish players, but so that thay can play in FISTF tournaments.

Thossa wrote:
Even when the opponents of Leonidas Koutromanos won on a greek court and obvisiously the current PATFAP-President is not legal, the day will come and a new election will come.

What do you think? If Mr. Koutromanos candidates again will the majority votes for him? If so, nothing will change.

And then what?

I think that if a person is found guilty by law, then he should be prevented from taking part in the association, especially as a director, by the court. But I don't know about the greek judicial system.

If this wouldn't happen, it would be the FISTF duty to prevent such a person (found guilty by law) to take a position in a national association board. As a player, no problem.

In any case, I feel that at the moment, the equal solution by the FISTF would be to make the whole PAFTAP unofficial as member of FISTF. When the problem is solved in the courts (or otherwise), PAFTAP would return to be a member nation. The players would of course have a special permission to play in the FISTF tournaments, and FISTF would decide on Greece's FISTF tournaments based on all clubs applications.

For the whole thing to be resolved by FISTF (council?), it would have to rely heavily on the "investigation" made by Janus Gersie last year. I understand that it might be the only impartial view of things as a whole.

kechris Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:12 am

Thossa wrote: If Mr. Koutromanos candidates again will the majority votes for him?

If he believes that the majority will vote him, then he would do elections the last 2 years.
But he did illegal elections and he took 8 votes 100% (his brother his teammates and his partner in scandals Papako....).

The statutes of patfap ask 9 members but he couldn't find. He find 8 and 2 of them retired one day before elections because they don't like the combination of illegal elections).
The sixth member of patfap BoD change club last month. He left Lions (koutrou club) and he came to my club (olympia) !!! He was financial director and he told us that these two years never had meeting as BoD of PATFAP!!! He hadn't see financial books, moneys, and he never did his signature in official paper of patfap!!!

Mr Gersie understood from the first time what happened in Greece. He made an effort to find solution but then in ex-fistf- forum Koutrou and papako called him "nazi". De francesco the same time did a blackmail to Coppenolle (i have proof by accident) and he asked to stop Gersie. After mr Gersie stop the recognition from patfap as greek federation and retired. Few months later koutrou did member of catania's team and now is vice president of fistf...Noone can stop him until now. Only about 12 players who decided to find solution in courts. We won in first court but he asked new higher court. In few months we will have and the second decision. Until then we cann't play in national and international tournaments because Koutrou is competition manager in all of them !!!

drastis Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:22 am

Dear Von K.,

Your comments are appreciated. What is most interesting in your approach is that you do not restrict the matter in a narrow frame, a problem between greeks etc. You are talking about the essence: This situation harms Table Football.

What we have is a clear breaching of rules. The non-Communications Director of FISTF, who happens to be the illegally elected "president" of the national association (according to greek court decision in the first degree) is organising a tournament without having taken the permission of FISTF Sports Director (as Heinz Eder confessed). He announces the tournament only five days before the date of the event, asking 15€ as an admission fee!! He than changes his mind and reduces the fee to 2€ (!!) When players go to the tournaments he refuses to admit some of them on the grounds that they are not members of the association!! Some others who ARE members, are not allowed to play because they supposingly owe money to the association. Does this sound normal to you?

Neglecting the rules, not allowing players to play in tournaments, insisting in a decision to stay in power by any means is not the way to attract new players. It is exactly the opposite. A way to kill the game. Taking into account that almost the same attitude has been adopted by mr Catania, it is plain that soon the same things will happen in FISTF, if they are not happening already (no elections, ban of V. Coppenolle, strange decisions by the few remaining members of FISTF BoD). So, it is more than obvious that nations MUST do something.

For me, it is completely inexplicable how table football nations still remain numb in front of such signs. Don't you see that democracy is waving goodbye? Don't you see that it is all planned? Don't you feel that soon you will have to fight against a regime that will act only for its own good? What do you expect? That the people who do not care about anyone will suddenly become humanitarians? Why don't you call for a General Meeting to get rid of this sick situation?

Is it that nobody cares?

von K. Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:11 am

kechris wrote:
Mr Gersie understood from the first time what happened in Greece. He made an effort to find solution but then in ex-fistf- forum Koutrou and papako called him "nazi".

The evidence is conveniently destroyed now. But if this is true (I do remember something like this, too) the only question is, why aren't Koutrou and Papako banned for two years?

Of course they could ask for the ban to be lifted in a Congress...

kechris wrote: De francesco the same time did a blackmail to Coppenolle (i have proof by accident) and he asked to stop Gersie. After mr Gersie stop the recognition from patfap as greek federation and retired.

I just don't know what to say, if this is true.

kechris Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:14 am

drastis wrote: He announces the tournament only five days before the date of the event, asking 15€ as an admission fee!! He than changes his mind and reduces the fee to 2€ (!!)

Three days before please Drastis. We received sms Wednesday morning.

Friday he sent new sms with new fee. The reason in sms for changing of fee was me!!! He wrote my name. Because i asked by players in greek forum to boycottage the tournament with 15e fee.

kechris Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:25 am

von K. wrote:
kechris wrote: De francesco the same time did a blackmail to Coppenolle (i have proof by accident) and he asked to stop Gersie. After mr Gersie stop the recognition from patfap as greek federation and retired.

I just don't know what to say, if this is true.

"if this is true". Why you don't believe me? Have you recently hear another blackmail by DeFrancesco...?
I cann't send you my proof but i will show it to George Papadopoulos. I think that you believe him.

**Admin** Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:47 am

I think to every rule there is the "letter" and the "spirit" so in this case, it's true all greek players living in Greece must be members of PATFAP but as long as there is an abusive behavior of the well-known Koutromanos, the rule is bullshit. I heard the very high membership fee is going to be used to pay the rent for a permanent hall in Athens. It's totally crazy because you can't oblige players to contribute to the rent of such a "permanent hall", in particular when players already have their own premises or just can't take advantage of the permanent premises because they live in other cities. looks like some people are just "dreaming" to have a "very professional" sport and they don't care about the ways to achieve this dreams...

de francesco Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:20 am

I don't understand many thinghs with kechris......

a week ago has told lies on the question of the world Cup and Heinz Eder and Janus Gersie explained to him the truth. Now pull out of this ............ mah.... I don't understand ..... Kechris shows what he is

Returning to the subject. One year and half ago, many greeks players asked to me to speak on the issue. I said this to Vincent, saying that if he authorized me I could put all the parts involved around a table to find a solution. Vincent told me that he was already dealing with Janus. The matter ended there.

Vincent knows the truth.

von K. Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:17 am

kechris wrote:
von K. wrote:
kechris wrote: De francesco the same time did a blackmail to Coppenolle (i have proof by accident) and he asked to stop Gersie. After mr Gersie stop the recognition from patfap as greek federation and retired.

I just don't know what to say, if this is true.

"if this is true". Why you don't believe me? Have you recently hear another blackmail by DeFrancesco...?
I cann't send you my proof but i will show it to George Papadopoulos. I think that you believe him.

It's not possible to be 100% sure on anything based on things written on a forum. It's not a question of not believing. It's just about making sure before judging. "If this is true" means just that.

Heinz Eder Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:10 am

You are much too cautious, if you want to be their "friend". Laughing

What you wrote means that you call them liars.

von K. wrote:
kechris wrote:
von K. wrote:
kechris wrote: De francesco the same time did a blackmail to Coppenolle (i have proof by accident) and he asked to stop Gersie. After mr Gersie stop the recognition from patfap as greek federation and retired.

I just don't know what to say, if this is true.

"if this is true". Why you don't believe me? Have you recently hear another blackmail by DeFrancesco...?
I cann't send you my proof but i will show it to George Papadopoulos. I think that you believe him.

It's not possible to be 100% sure on anything based on things written on a forum. It's not a question of not believing. It's just about making sure before judging. "If this is true" means just that.

Janus_Gersie Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:28 am

I am tired of reading ever and ever again something about Hellas. I was close to the whole story and I won't comment on it again.
When Vincent and the old board decided to leave PATFAP and Hellas alone with its problems (even though I learned at the last congress in Rain that there are no problems) my hope was with the new board.
I was asked to write a report. Done. I talked several times with Silvio and asked him to find a solution. Regardless from who is right or wrong. As I ever said: FISTF needs a strong and health tablesoccer community in Hellas. We will run once or twice per year in troubles because things are not solved yet.
That is the problem. It is not enough to say that each and every player has to be member of a national federation. That makes no sense because it doesn't help to sort out things in Hellas.

We have to ask: why do we still have arguing parties in Hellas ? And what can FISTF do to solve the really tricky situation ? Do we know what is really happening ?
All questions has to be put on the table. And then we need answers .... as soon as possible.

By the way: it was part of my work to recommend further steps. One of my recommendations was to allow ALL players in Hellas playing tournaments even if they are NO member of the respectice association. And I knew exactly why I recommended that .....

Janus Gersie

drastis Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:40 am

Heinz Eder wrote:You are much too cautious, if you want to be their "friend".
What you wrote means that you call them liars.

You say it's not your business Heinz, why don't you stay out of this clever guy?

Regarding the matter, we all heard then that de Francesco interfered in favour of Koutroumanos. He did not call any one of us, so we can't be sure what he said to Coppenolle. Maybe some of his friends asked him to put pressure, as he implies in his post. His later co-operation with Koutroumanos is a confirmation that he really did give support. Vincent was put under a lot of pressure by this intervention of de Francesco then, but I think it's way too hard to call that pressure a blackmail.

georgy Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:01 pm

Unfortunately once more my teammate Kechris (even though I know that he has the right intentions) intervenes in the conversation, and he leads it to different paths. I do not care what happened with de Francesco or whoever.

THE QUESTION IS ONE AND IT IS SIMPLE!

We were and will be denied to take part in international tournaments (Olympia CS) since we
are not members (or we do not pay) of PATFAP.

We do not recognise PATFAP because the "elections" were illegal since we did not take part (THAT'S WHY WE DO NOT PAY OR REGISTER)
We have a result from the greek court in favor of us. They appealed and god knows how many times they might do the same.

SO THE QUESTION IS THIS:
CAN WE GET AN OK FROM SOMEONE THAT WE CAN TAKE PART IN TOURNAMENTS EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT MEMBERS? CAN SOMEONE ENFORCE THIS TO THEM YES OR NO?
Since they discovered that we have to be members of a national association, can we register to the Finnish association for example, which accepts "refugees" as very nicely von K. put it? (thanks by the way Very Happy

)
CAN SOMEONE ENFORCE THE SAME FOR NATIONAL TOURNAMENTS IN GREECE YES OR NO?

Thanks in advace for anyone who has still the energy to take the time and write his "cent" on this matter!

P.S 1 By the way I am really curious about what Thossa said, that it was a "friendly tournament" among Greek teams! If this is true many people will be disapointed, since there were also foreigner there! The 2 new Maltese top players of ATLAS. I was not there on Sunday so I do not know if they participated, but I assume that it will be a big shock to them, as well as the others, that this tournament might not count!

P.S. 2 Dear Heinz, please USE the correct words when writing in the forum.
"What you wrote means that you call them liars.". Who is THEM? Please do not generalize! By the way, if I question someone, it does not mean that I call him a liar!

P.S. 3 Kechris stop using my name for things that are irrelevant and can not be used as facts.

Heinz Eder Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:37 pm

Dear Georgy,
when I write "them", I meant Kostas and drastis nobody else, I thought it would be clear, because those are the only 2 who react that way.
about your other question, i don't think it is easy in the current situation. The only way could be to request a FISTF licence, but in the actual situation I don't think your chances would be high to get. Nobody knows what will happen in the future, I only can tell you that FISTF only knows about the players of their own country if they are members or not, because I don't think that any other association sent them a complete member list.

Nobody knows what the current board decided on that matter, in the past it wasn't a problem, even when FISTF got some complaints to do something in that case. It is a problem for associations when players and/or clubs are not members, but playing FISTF tournaments and then they represent an association at the WC/EC they aren't even member from.

Heinz

georgy wrote:Unfortunately once more my teammate Kechris (even though I know that he has the right intentions) intervenes in the conversation, and he leads it to different paths. I do not care what happened with de Francesco or whoever.

THE QUESTION IS ONE AND IT IS SIMPLE!

We were and will be denied to take part in international tournaments (Olympia CS) since we
are not members (or we do not pay) of PATFAP.

We do not recognise PATFAP because the "elections" were illegal since we did not take part (THAT'S WHY WE DO NOT PAY OR REGISTER)
We have a result from the greek court in favor of us. They appealed and god knows how many times they might do the same.

SO THE QUESTION IS THIS:
CAN WE GET AN OK FROM SOMEONE THAT WE CAN TAKE PART IN TOURNAMENTS EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT MEMBERS? CAN SOMEONE ENFORCE THIS TO THEM YES OR NO?
Since they discovered that we have to be members of a national association, can we register to the Finnish association for example, which accepts "refugees" as very nicely von K. put it? (thanks by the way )
CAN SOMEONE ENFORCE THE SAME FOR NATIONAL TOURNAMENTS IN GREECE YES OR NO?

Thanks in advace for anyone who has still the energy to take the time and write his "cent" on this matter!

P.S 1 By the way I am really curious about what Thossa said, that it was a "friendly tournament" among Greek teams! If this is true many people will be disapointed, since there were also foreigner there! The 2 new Maltese top players of ATLAS. I was not there on Sunday so I do not know if they participated, but I assume that it will be a big shock to them, as well as the others, that this tournament might not count!

P.S. 2 Dear Heinz, please USE the correct words when writing in the forum.
"What you wrote means that you call them liars.". Who is THEM? Please do not generalize! By the way, if I question someone, it does not mean that I call him a liar!

P.S. 3 Kechris stop using my name for things that are irrelevant and can not be used as facts.

georgy Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:00 pm

Dear Heinz, first let me clarify ONCE again that what we discuss now is a BIG HYPE.

But since we have no other way, actually I do not think that is is difficult AT ALL in the current situation.

In Olympia we have 2 players who are of Albanian origin but live permanently in Greece. The count as
Albanians (their nationality) even though they play in Greece.

We are all or most of us in European Union, correct?
Ok, now I tell you that all the Olympia players moved to Finland and we all live there!
Actually we are all so rich that we have our own airplanes and we move back and forth every day!!!
We register to the Finnish association, we can not play to the national team because anyway we are Greek, but still can play in tournaments! I can even give you an address if you want!

I know that this is a joke, but I am just saying that we can also be "clever".
SO PLEASE JUST SOMEONE, tell them to stop acting like 4 year olds. We do not have to like each
other. Just play.

Heinz Eder wrote:Dear Georgy,
when I write "them", I meant Kostas and drastis nobody else, I thought it would be clear, because those are the only 2 who react that way.
about your other question, i don't think it is easy in the current situation. The only way could be to request a FISTF licence, but in the actual situation I don't think your chances would be high to get. Nobody knows what will happen in the future, I only can tell you that FISTF only knows about the players of their own country if they are members or not, because I don't think that any other association sent them a complete member list.

Nobody knows what the current board decided on that matter, in the past it wasn't a problem, even when FISTF got some complaints to do something in that case. It is a problem for associations when players and/or clubs are not members, but playing FISTF tournaments and then they represent an association at the WC/EC they aren't even member from.

Heinz

drastis Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:14 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Dear Georgy,
when I write "them", I meant Kostas and drastis nobody else, I thought it would be clear, because those are the only 2 who react that way.

For me what is clear is that you are biased.

Anyone can read my posts and decide by themselves how I react. They can read my arguments and yours, they can judge if I am the one who's confused or someone else, they can understand who is defending his rights and who is against common sense.

You constantly try to present me and Kostas as some narrow-minded funny guys fighting against windmills, while you forget the fact that our extreme reactions are maybe the result of a nasty and continuous "persecution" we have been suffering for more than two years. A persecution that is led by some "gentlemen" who had YOUR support (or tolerance to be kinder to you) during all this time.

You can say whatever you want for me. Let me tell you what I think of you. YOU, as member of the previous BoD, are co-responsible for the situation in Greece and (most importantly) in FISTF. You let things happen, while you could (and should) have done something. You stick on the "letter" of the rules and you miss the "spirit". You are only good in bureaucracy, but not a good manager.

PS Kostas' english is not so good but he tries very hard. Do not use this fact to show that he talks nonsense.

Heinz Eder Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:44 pm

If you think that I want to present you as narrow-minded, i ask myself why I give you all facts I have in many cases.
If i would think that really, i wouldn't inform you the way I'm doing it, but anyway it is good to know.

Heinz

drastis wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Dear Georgy,
when I write "them", I meant Kostas and drastis nobody else, I thought it would be clear, because those are the only 2 who react that way.
For me what is clear is that you are biased.

Anyone can read my posts and decide by themselves how I react. They can read my arguments and yours, they can judge if I am the one who's confused or someone else, they can understand who is defending his rights and who is against common sense.

You constantly try to present me and Kostas as some narrow-minded funny guys fighting against windmills, while you forget the fact that our extreme reactions are maybe the result of a nasty and continuous "persecution" we have been suffering for more than two years. A persecution that is led by some "gentlemen" who had YOUR support (or tolerance to be kinder to you) during all this time.

You can say whatever you want for me. Let me tell you what I think of you. [b]YOU/b], as member of the previous BoD, are co-responsible for the situation in Greece and (most importantly) in FISTF. You let things happen, while you could (and should) have done something. You stick on the "letter" of the rules and you miss the "spirit". You are only good in bureaucracy, but not a good manager.

PS Kostas' english is not so good but he tries very hard. Do not use this fact to show that he talks nonsense.

kechris Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:13 pm

de francesco wrote:I don't understand many thinghs with kechris......

WHY? BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND OR BECAUSE YOU CANN'T?

a week ago has told lies
I DIDN'T TELL LIES. I WROTE THAT I TOOK INFORMATION BY A PERSON WHO WAS THERE. HIS WORDS ARE ALL RIGHT EXCEPT ONE BECAUSE MEETING WAS PRIVE AND MANY PERSONS UNDERSTOOD DIFFERENT THINGS AND UNTIL NOW NONE HAS OFFICIAL MINUTES TO CLEAN THE SITUATION.
on the question of the world Cup and Heinz Eder and Janus Gersie explained to him the truth. Now pull out of this ............ mah.... I don't understand ..... Kechris shows what he is
PEOPLE LIKE YOU, NEVER CANN'T UNDERSTAND THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

Returning to the subject. One year and half ago, many (MANY? MORE OR FEW? ONE,TWO OR ONE HUNDRED) greeks players asked to me to speak on the issue
(WHY? YOU WERE GREEK REPRESENTER? DO YOU ASK THE REST PLAYERS? .
I said this to Vincent, saying that if he authorized me I could put all the parts involved around a table to find a solution. Vincent told me that he was already dealing with Janus. The matter ended there.
WHO IS THE LIAR? YOU ASKED VINCENT ABOUT SIX MONTHS AFTER MR GERSIE BEGAN, WHEN MR GERSIE UNDERSTAND WHO HAD RIGHT OF THE TWO GREEK SIDES. AND YOU ASK HIM TO STOP IMMEDIATELY MR GERSIE. IF HE DID'T STOP MR GERSIE THEN ITALY WILL STOP SUPPORTING FISTF. EVERYTIME YOU USE THE NAME OF YOUR COUNTRY FOR YOUR JOBS.

Vincent knows the truth. YES HE KNOWS.

hönkki Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:33 pm

The reason? We are not “members” of PATFAP (Panhellenic Association of Table Football Amateur Players) or we haven’t paid what we “owe” (some of us, according to the current “management”, owe 230 euros! Since we were the founding members of PATFAP! Ridiculous! Only founding members had the right to vote in the elections. Please see explanation below(*) ).

We said that this is an international tournament not a national one, but they used the excuse that it is in the FISTF rules that in order to participate in international tournaments you have to be a member of a national association. True this is a rule, but FISTF has never enforced this rule (Mr Parnaby and Mr Vulpes replied to a relevant question by saying that), and we are certain that in EVERY international tournament there are players who do not belong in a national association. Why the decided NOW to “discover and use” an old rule? The answer is obvious! To punish us. RIDICULOUS!

There are countries which don't have any association, but still players from those countries can participate in FISTF's tournaments. One such country is Australia. When that is the case, then players from Greece, who don't belong to PATFAP, or any other association, should have the right to play in FISTF's tournaments.

Since then there was a legal action against them and WE HAVE WON the case in the GREEK COURT but they appealed (obviously in order to gain time and continue having the power) and we are waiting for the case to be processed. Even though we have won they still have the “management”!

I'm not expert of Greek Court or in any law-business and I'm not expert in the PATFAP-situation and I might be totally wrong. Anyway, I wonder one thing: if I understood correctly, PATFAP is found illegal. That means they are illegal at least until the next Greek court -session, no matter if they appealed. If PATFAP is illegal, how it is possible that PATFAP has the power in Greece ? I'm just asking. As I said, I'm not expert in this case.

Mr Gersie, Mr Catania, Mr Copenolle, Mr Busing, Mr Hakarainen!

Actually it is Mr Hakkarainen. Hakarainen sounds funny to me Smile

First time to me to be mentioned with those well known names. Shocked

Martin Hodds Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:50 am

Are there any other clubs who are 'black listed' by PATFAP or is it just Olympia ?

kechris Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:49 am

Black listed are the players who asked by the court to took decision for illegal elections.
The more players are members of Olympia and S.B.S.C.(SCARLET BATTALIONS)
S.B.S.C. decided to play only in international tournaments if the competition manager is not koutrou and his company. I remember that they played last year at Falcons I.O.
I think now Rolligans decided boycottage against patfap competitions.

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