Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Heinz Eder Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:08 am

Kostas, in days like that it is not good to loose humor.
I think Thossa got it the right way, and to explain humor destroys the sense of it, so I leave it like that, even if you don't seem to understand.
In democracy everybody is free to vote for whoever he wants, and many people have many different opinions and that's good. So I don't comment your board, because it doesn't make sense and as you said you don't want it. I respect that. Exclamation

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:be happy, you are a man without past (at least without negative past in Kostas's opinion)

Yes of course Heinz.
I think that the EMOTICONS : was not fair. For me and Thossa.
p.s did you see that in my list was not the name of my close friend and candidate Drazinakis? I said my opinion and if the greek provisional BoD ask by me to vote for elections in Madrid i will vote for the game no for me.
It is difficult for you maybe.

Heinz Eder Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:17 am

You know the list of candidates and you know for which post the candidate applies, so the associations know that they have to choose maybe between 1 of 2 or more people from the same association. In my opinion the fairest way would be first to make a voting between the candidates from the same country, to know who is the final candidate from that country.
Then elections for every post should take place after that.
Otherwise it could happen that delegates have to change their vote in last moment.
Generally it is like you described, the following candidates have to be cancelled from the list of candidates. Not the best solution, I totally agree.

Another interesting question is what happens if a candidate is the only one for a department, but he isn't elected by the majority. In the statutes nothing is written down. What does the french law say in such a case?

drastis wrote:12-4 The President, the Vice-Presidents and the General Secretary shall all be members of different National Associations, and all of them shall have different citizenships.

Regarding the above, I have a logical question (having been a programmer for many years in the past, makes you see algorithms everywhere...)

HOW CAN THIS WORK??

If there are more than one candidates from the same country, how can we decide who's excluded?? Is it a matter of chance, the one who gets elected first takes the place, the other one has a touch luck? In such a case the result would change, if we changed the order of places for which the Congress votes. And then, who decides about the order of votes?

An example: A and B are candidates from Neverland. A goes for Sports, B goes for Marketing. The vote for Sports Director takes place first, A is elected. Now, what happens with B? Can he be elected? And what is the special circumstance that would allow him to take the place? However, if the vote for Marketing had happened first, A would have been the unlucky one. Funny!

Any suggestions please?

Thossa Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:08 pm

What your wrote sounds logical, George.

drastis wrote:12-4 The President, the Vice-Presidents and the General Secretary shall all be members of different National Associations, and all of them shall have different citizenships.

Regarding the above, I have a logical question (having been a programmer for many years in the past, makes you see algorithms everywhere...)

HOW CAN THIS WORK??

If there are more than one candidates from the same country, how can we decide who's excluded?? Is it a matter of chance, the one who gets elected first takes the place, the other one has a touch luck? In such a case the result would change, if we changed the order of places for which the Congress votes. And then, who decides about the order of votes?

An example: A and B are candidates from Neverland. A goes for Sports, B goes for Marketing. The vote for Sports Director takes place first, A is elected. Now, what happens with B? Can he be elected? And what is the special circumstance that would allow him to take the place? However, if the vote for Marketing had happened first, A would have been the unlucky one. Funny!

Any suggestions please?

kechris Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:03 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Kostas, in days like that it is not good to loose humor.
I think Thossa got it the right way, and to explain humor destroys the sense of it, so I leave it like that, even if you don't seem to understand.

Ι understand your humor but i don't like. I prefer your joke "Heinz for president". I was laughing for hours.

Do you like my humor? I hope to understand it.

Heinz Eder Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:09 pm

Yes of course, you are the funniest man I've ever seen

PS: It was not my joke but never mind. Wink

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Kostas, in days like that it is not good to loose humor.
I think Thossa got it the right way, and to explain humor destroys the sense of it, so I leave it like that, even if you don't seem to understand.

Ι understand your humor but i don't like. I prefer your joke "Heinz for president". I was laughing for hours.

Do you like my humor? I hope to understand it.

kechris Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:15 pm

Heinz Eder wrote: Yes of course, you are the funniest man I've ever seen

You must buy a miror...

Heinz Eder wrote: In my opinion the fairest way would be first to make a ...

IN EVERY YOUR POST YOU WROTE FOR THE RULES FOR THE STATUTES FOR THE LEGAL.

Now you remember that the best solutions are the fair. Never is too late.

Heinz Eder Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:35 pm

Honestly, you are much more funny than me. Crying or Very sad

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote: Yes of course, you are the funniest man I've ever seen
You must buy a miror...

Not knowing the rules and statutes and writing something like that is funny too Laughing

I maybe have to clearify it, it could be another idea for a change in the next edition of statutes. I'm wondering that somebody like you who sued somebody because of not respecting the law don't agree with me on respecting rules and laws Exclamation

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote: In my opinion the fairest way would be first to make a ...
IN EVERY YOUR POST YOU WROTE FOR THE RULES FOR THE STATUTES FOR THE LEGAL.

Now you remember that the best solutions are the fair. Never is too late.

kechris Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:08 pm

I loose my time with you.
Why you believe that i don't know the statutes?
You were sport director and you didn't know the rules of game. In ex forum your opinion for the rules were different by all other people.
I respect the law but the first law in my life is to be fair. The law of the heart. No the law of statutes.
I didn't sue a person for a problem but because he is not at first fair to me.
You didn't write one rule and now you ask to write the statutes.

drastis Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:38 am

Heinz Eder wrote:In my opinion the fairest way would be first to make a voting between the candidates from the same country, to know who is the final candidate from that country.
Then elections for every post should take place after that.

Does look fair, but is it anywhere in the statuses? Wink

Heinz Eder wrote:Generally it is like you described, the following candidates have to be cancelled from the list of candidates. Not the best solution, I totally agree.

This does not look fair at all. Who decides the order? And what if the second candidate is the only one for the place? Is this the extraordinary case when both are elected maybe?

Heinz Eder wrote:Another interesting question is what happens if a candidate is the only one for a department, but he isn't elected by the majority. In the statutes nothing is written down. What does the french law say in such a case?

This cannot happen Heinz. White votes do not count, so even if he takes one vote he is elected.

What is not writen down is about draws. What happens when there is a draw? A repeat of the voting procedure?

Lots of leaks, it seems...

Heinz Eder Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:58 am

no it is not, i know that, so I think the option which is not fair has to be used.
but again for the future it could become reality.

drastis wrote:
Does look fair, but is it anywhere in the statuses?

In my opinion in such a case the candidate who is the only one for a post automatically is the one who will be on the board. I don't think it is an extra ordinary case, because there are enough candidates to form a board without people from the same associations.
Of course i have to agree with you that it is not good and causes problems, but maybe the french law is more precise for something like that.

drastis wrote:
This does not look fair at all. Who decides the order? And what if the second candidate is the only one for the place? Is this the extraordinary case when both are elected maybe?

Ok, then it works the same way as in Austria, I only wanted to know if there is a difference in the french law.

drastis wrote:
This cannot happen Heinz. White votes do not count, so even if he takes one vote he is elected.

very interesting question, you are right that's not written down. Maybe that needs also a reading in french law.

drastis wrote:
What is not writen down is about draws. What happens when there is a draw? A repeat of the voting procedure?

Lots of leaks, it seems...

Thossa Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:26 am

If one day a commission will start to work to optimise FISTF statutes I would appriciate it, when Alex Popoff is included, because to me it seems he knows enough about french law. BTW: it´s a tough nut to crack and it should be realised step by step. Par example: if the sections with elections would be the first step and it is finished (and agreed), a temporary update should be published and than the next step can follow.

Heinz Eder Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:33 am

You didn't write anything for any department and/or topic of FISTF, but you want us make believing that you have for every problem a simple solution, but in the end your proposals are nothing but populist.

You missed to forward your concept of "simple solutions" to the pre-previous board.
You missed to forward your concept of "simple solutions" to the previous board.
You missed to forward your concept of "simple solutions" to that board.

Is it for the good of the game to hide it? Laughing

Hopefully somebody will see it one day, because as it seems you are not ready to take the responsibility on your own to transform your simple solutions in the reality of FISTF. I don't know the reason, maybe you are not ready to blame yourself in the end, when you see that solutions aren't always as simple as you think.

People who had your respect lost it in a few weeks, because they didn't what you proposed, so honestly I feel comfortable in the situation not being liked and only critizized by you.
People who you complained about in many mails that they are not good for the greek association and who wanted to "destroy" you and your club, are now nominated in your team, you would prefer for FISTF. Question

This is absolutely no attack against Chragg from my side, I respect him and he did a lot for the game in Greece, but you always saw it totally different in the last years, you complained that he is not able to be Head Referee, you complained that he is not fair against you and your club, suddenly he should be sports director in your FISTF Board, and should be responsible for exactly the same things you critzized him in the last years?

On your own you still prefer it to critizize only instead of being constructive. People like you would normally be very good for commissions (not all of your ideas are bad), but you are not compatible with people of different opinion.

PS: I didn't say I write statutes, I'm not a lawyer, but I maybe could be part of those who think about changes in the statutes. I have some points (new and modifications) that could be discussed already, I would also offer them, if I'm not part of those who work on changes, what do you have to discuss about or to offer except of blame, if the people act the wrong way (in your opinion) in the first weeks after they are elected?
Keep waiting for the right person to send your concept of simple solutions (hopefully it will ever be born), but don't blame others who want to work and want to take the responsibility for their work. Even if you don't like my time as sports director, I take the responsibility for that time. There were positive and negative things, for both I'm responsible. What for are you responsible?

What does your heart and sense for fairness tell you when you are candidate and have the same number of votes like the other candidate?
Could you imagine that somebody elses heart maybe has a different feeling?
Is your feeling then always the one which has to be valid?
You exactly described why we need very good statutes and rules. People like you who listen to their heart always think they are right, because their heart is telling them, but everybody has a heart feeling, 2000 different heart feelings could become difficult, don't you think?
What is good and what is bad or what is right and what is wrong, are you the instance who have to tell us?

kechris wrote:I loose my time with you.
Why you believe that i don't know the statutes?
You were sport director and you didn't know the rules of game. In ex forum your opinion for the rules were different by all other people.
I respect the law but the first law in my life is to be fair. The law of the heart. No the law of statutes.
I didn't sue a person for a problem but because he is not at first fair to me.
You didn't write one rule and now you ask to write the statutes.

kechris Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:38 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:You didn't write anything for any department and/or topic of FISTF, but you want us make believing that you have for every problem a simple solution, but in the end your proposals are nothing but populist.

You missed to forward your concept of "simple solutions" to the pre-previous board.
You missed to forward your concept of "simple solutions" to the previous board.
You missed to forward your concept of "simple solutions" to that board.

Is it for the good of the game to hide it?

Ι WROTE MY OPINIONS IN FORUM THE LAST YEARS. NO PRIVATE IF YOU WANTED THIS.

Hopefully somebody will see it one day, because as it seems you are not ready to take the responsibility on your own to transform your simple solutions in the reality of FISTF. I don't know the reason, maybe you are not ready to blame yourself in the end, when you see that solutions aren't always as simple as you think.

I INSIST. THE SOLUTIONS ARE SIMPLE. THE DECISIONS ARE DIFFICULT.

People who had your respect lost it in a few weeks, because they didn't what you proposed, so honestly I feel comfortable in the situation not being liked and only critizized by you.
People who you complained about in many mails that they are not good for the greek association and who wanted to "destroy" you and your club, are now nominated in your team, you would prefer for FISTF.

YOU SUPPORT KOUTROUMANOS AND HE F--CK YOU LAST YEAR. YOU BAN ME FOR THE TABLES BUT FINALLY I HAVE RIGHT. I TOLD LAST YEAR BE CAREFULL WITH PROFFESIONALS BUT YOU HAVE YOUR EARS CLOSED. I TOLD BEFORE RAIN -NO POSSIBLE TO BEEN ELECTIONS- BUT YOU WERE TALKING FOR CoN.
BECAUSE YOUR ENGLISH IS BETTER THAN MINE AND BECAUSE YOU WRITE LONG MAILS YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT? WAKE UP. IN GREECE YOUR ARE JOKE. THE SPORT DIRECTOR WHO DON'T KNOW THE RULES.

This is absolutely no attack against Chragg from my side, I respect him and he did a lot for the game in Greece, but you always saw it totally different in the last years, you complained that he is not able to be Head Referee, you complained that he is not fair against you and your club, suddenly he should be sports director in your FISTF Board, and should be responsible for exactly the same things you critzized him in the last years?

YES OF COURSE. CHRAGG IS GOOD IN RULES AND TO ORGANISE BUT HE LOVES TO ORGANISE SO MUCH SO HE WAS EASY IN PRESSURE. WE SPEAK SOMETIMES IN PHONE. I RESPECT THAT HE IS POPULAR AND HE RESPECT THAT I LOVE MORE THAN EVERYONE THE TABLE SOCCER. HE ACCEPTED MANY TIMES THAT HE DID WRONGS IN PAST SO I ASK BY HIM TO REPRESENT GREECE IN BOD. BUT NOW HE HASN'T MANY TIME, AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND HIS TIME FOR THIS FISTF. I GAVE HIM A SECOND CHANCE BECAUSE HE ACCEPTED HIS MISTAKES. DO YOU ACCEPT EVER YOUR MISTAKES?

On your own you still prefer it to critizize only instead of being constructive. People like you would normally be very good for commissions (not all of your ideas are bad), but you are not compatible with people of different opinion.

YES. IF YOU FOLLOW YOUR OPINION YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RESULT NO ME. SO MY OPINION IS GOOD UNTIL TO PROVED THAT IT IS WRONG.

PS: I didn't say I write statutes, I'm not a lawyer, but I maybe could be part of those who think about changes in the statutes. I have some points (new and modifications) that could be discussed already, I would also offer them, if I'm not part of those who work on changes, what do you have to discuss about or to offer except of blame, if the people act the wrong way (in your opinion) in the first weeks after they are elected?

YOU ARE NOT LAWYER SO YOU CANN'T WRITE STATUTES. BUT AS TABLE SOCCER PLAYER YOU DIDN'T WRITE ONE RULE FOR 3.5 YEARS AS SPORT DIRECTOR. SO?...

Keep waiting for the right person to send your concept of simple solutions (hopefully it will ever be born), but don't blame others who want to work and want to take the responsibility for their work. Even if you don't like my time as sports director, I take the responsibility for that time. There were positive and negative things, for both I'm responsible. What for are you responsible?

I DIDN'T SEE POSITIVE THINGS. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING BECAUSE I WAS NOT EVER FISTF BoD MEMBER AND I DIDN'T EVER VOTE.

What does your heart and sense for fairness tell you when you are candidate and have the same number of votes like the other candidate?
Could you imagine that somebody elses heart maybe has a different feeling?
Is your feeling then always the one which has to be valid?
You exactly described why we need very good statutes and rules. People like you who listen to their heart always think they are right, because their heart is telling them, but everybody has a heart feeling, 2000 different heart feelings could become difficult, don't you think?
What is good and what is bad or what is right and what is wrong, are you the instance who have to tell us?

SORRY BUT I CANN'T UNDERSTAND THE LAST PARAGRAPH.
MY HEART AND MY MIND WORK TOGETHER. AND THEY BELIEVE THAT MY FRIEND DRAZINAKIS A FAMILIAR A PERSON WHO IS ANALYST IN A BIG BANK COMPANY WHO STUDY PHYSICS IN UNIVERSITY AND AFTER COMPUTERS AND HE SPEAKS PERFECT ENGLISH AND HE UNDERSTAND THE EUROPEAN CULTURE BECAUSE HE TRAVEL VERY OFTEN TO ABROAD AND HIS WIFE LIVED MANY YEARS IN BELGIUM, IS MAYBE THE BEST SOLUTION FOR BoD. BUT I ASKED ALSO BY CHRAGG TO BE CANDIDATE BECAUSE HE HAS MORE POSSIBILITIES TO ELECTED. AND I AM NOT CANDIDATE NO BECAUSE I AM BAD SOLUTION BUT BECAUSE I AM SURE THAT YOU PREFER COOL CHARACTERS.

Thossa Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:53 pm

Heinz AND Kostas,

please do us a favor and carry on your catfight no longer in public. Why don´t you use PM´s or write everything one by one via E-Mail?

Or do you really enjoy your public dispute?

You both are strong characters with only a minimum of solidarity. We all know it meanwhile. It makes no sense to read your ongoing verbal exchange ever and ever.

BTW: No explanations or excuses are necessary. Just calm down or fight outside this forum, please.

dromer Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:17 am

@Thossa
Let them have their fight in public it shows their incompetence of having a conversation without ending up screaming.
On a forum you get to know people a lot better than in real life.

kechris Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:11 pm

ΟΚ Τhossa.

Yes Dromer. But my character is the same in forum and in real life. Straight.

Janus_Gersie Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:07 pm

To all interested:
Germay announced last night Fred Vulpes as candidate for Finances.
Silvio is informed. We are waiting for the confirmation

Janus Gersie

Luis Filipe Horta Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:15 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:To all interested:
Germay announced last night Fred Vulpes as candidate for Finances.
Silvio is informed. We are waiting for the confirmation

Janus Gersie

Any announced candidate for president ?

Heinz Eder Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:38 am

for me there is no further need to continue that discussion.
I published all my points and I got the answers I expected from Kostas.
thanks to Kostas.

Heinz

Thossa wrote:Heinz AND Kostas,

please do us a favor and carry on your catfight no longer in public. Why don´t you use PM´s or write everything one by one via E-Mail?

Or do you really enjoy your public dispute?

You both are strong characters with only a minimum of solidarity. We all know it meanwhile. It makes no sense to read your ongoing verbal exchange ever and ever.

BTW: No explanations or excuses are necessary. Just calm down or fight outside this forum, please.

mikeburns Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:56 pm

kechris wrote:ΟΚ Τhossa.

Yes Dromer. But my character is the same in forum and in real life. Straight.

"STRAIGHT!!!!!" ha ha ha!

Maybe not, I seem to remember the time you and your team mates cheated a club full of young guys in Mons. What was straight about that Kostas??? You ordered your team to do it!

I cant and wont respect anything you say after what you did all those years ago. Infact, i dont think anyone here does listen to anything you say Kostas.

drastis Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:51 am

Latest information.

FISTF President mr Catania has been informed officially about the Court of Appeals decision that refers to the matter of the illegal election of the Greek BoD in 2008. He received a scanned copy of the official decision and a translation of the part that announces the decision of the Court. The message was sent to all known to us National Associations Presidents.

By the same message, he was also informed that mr Koutroumanos is no longer entitled to represent PATFAP in any way, since after the decision of the Court of Appeals he possesses no title in PATFAP, except that he is one of the five members of the Provisionary BoD. The Provisionary BoD as a body has undertaken control of PATFAP and will be acting as BoD until there is a legal election and a proper BoD has been elected. Consequently, every decision of the Provisionary BoD (the representation of PATFAP in Madrid included) will have to be taken by a majority vote.

Mr Catania also received a statement signed by the three (of five) members of the Provisionary BoD, by which the majority of the members (3 out of 5) appoint mr George Drazinakis responsible for the communication of the Provisionary BoD with FISTF until there is an elected BoD.

I hope all the above makes clear to everyone that Greece will be represented in Madrid EGM by the person who will be appointed by the majority of Provisionary BoD members and not by mr Koutroumanos.

drastis Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:29 pm

Mr Catania just sent me an email saying that he never received any of my emails to him. Can any of the Presidents of National Associations who were included as cc in my emails confirm that they received my messages?

Also, can any one of them forward my emails to mr Catania? Piero must be getting my emails, I think.

Although it seems a very difficult think to send my emails to mr Catania, I am sure in the end I will find a way.

drastis wrote:Latest information.

FISTF President mr Catania has been informed officially about the Court of Appeals decision that refers to the matter of the illegal election of the Greek BoD in 2008. He received a scanned copy of the official decision and a translation of the part that announces the decision of the Court. The message was sent to all known to us National Associations Presidents.

By the same message, he was also informed that mr Koutroumanos is no longer entitled to represent PATFAP in any way, since after the decision of the Court of Appeals he possesses no title in PATFAP, except that he is one of the five members of the Provisionary BoD. The Provisionary BoD as a body has undertaken control of PATFAP and will be acting as BoD until there is a legal election and a proper BoD has been elected. Consequently, every decision of the Provisionary BoD (the representation of PATFAP in Madrid included) will have to be taken by a majority vote.

Mr Catania also received a statement signed by the three (of five) members of the Provisionary BoD, by which the majority of the members (3 out of 5) appoint mr George Drazinakis responsible for the communication of the Provisionary BoD with FISTF until there is an elected BoD.

I hope all the above makes clear to everyone that Greece will be represented in Madrid EGM by the person who will be appointed by the majority of Provisionary BoD members and not by mr Koutroumanos.

maxischn Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:27 pm

Austria received your statment and we acknowledge it

could you mail the decision as well?

Janus_Gersie Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:15 am

drastis wrote:Can any of the Presidents of National Associations who were included as cc in my emails confirm that they received my messages?

I can confirm we received that mentioned email from you !

drastis wrote:Also, can any one of them forward my emails to mr Catania? Piero must be getting my emails, I think.

I would but right now I am in Budapest and my private mails are on my desktop at home. Can't send it to Mr. Catania not earlier than coming weekend

Cheers
Janus

kechris Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:30 pm

Ι receive a mail by Alan Collins.
Now i think that now he support Silvio.
Also i informed that Argentina will have for represantive the Papakonstantinou !
In Rain i think that Italy was represantive for Argentina.
So Malta and Italy prefer illegal Koutroumanos than legal Greek represantive.
I am wait to hear Capponi's opinion for Spain.
I shame for FISTF. I made a bet for split.

All the greek players are against Koutroumanos-Papakonstantinou. The greek courts decided 2 times that they are illegal elected. I am waiting to see who will support the ILLEGALS?

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