Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

kechris Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:12 pm

Heinz:
So I fear it is wrong to think that a Major in Greece will attract more foreign people from other countries

Vincent:
About Greece: tournaments in Washington and Singapore are very good as well. They are just very difficult places to go for a tournament (or expensive). Greece is no an isolated case.

Yes the solution has two legs. The first leg is : no 15 tournaments in Belgium and Holland.
The second: one Major to top class countries and in all corners of europe. Not only in West and central europe.

Because you didn't understand that FISTF is like a mother. And mothers love ALL THEIR CHILDREN THE SAME! BUT MAYBE WE ARE BASTARD.

p.s maybe singapore's tournament is good like Greece ( fantastic joke, i will say it to your friend Aggelinas) but how many players by singapore played in Mons the last ten years? 0 (ZERO?)
In Greece we use to visit our friends house. But and they visit our house. It is a kind moving for both sides. I hope to understand what i mean because my english is not so good.

Heinz Eder Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:51 pm

You think FISTF doesn't treat Greece the same way like all other countries?
Come on Kostas, don't move that discussion on a personal level again.
Every time when Greece applied for something you got it, because we are happy to have big events in many different countries.
Have a look on the last ECs. Spain, Portugal, Greece, England, Belgium, Austria
please tell me what's not fair on that?

According on you players and clubs should come to the gp of greece, when you played the event organized by that club too? was a bit difficult that season. Cool

According on the number of tournaments you might be right, but I don't agree on it to cancel Satellites, Challengers and Futures totally, because I think that most players who play those events, won't be ready to travel far away instead of playing a Satellite 50km away from their home.
Greece has a Major now, we will see how many players it will attract, so far Greece never applied for a Major, so you can't blame anybody, that Greece didn't have a Major already.

kechris wrote:Heinz:
So I fear it is wrong to think that a Major in Greece will attract more foreign people from other countries

Vincent:
About Greece: tournaments in Washington and Singapore are very good as well. They are just very difficult places to go for a tournament (or expensive). Greece is no an isolated case.

Yes the solution has two legs. The first leg is : no 15 tournaments in Belgium and Holland.
The second: one Major to top class countries and in all corners of europe. Not only in West and central europe.

Because you didn't understand that FISTF is like a mother. And mothers love ALL THEIR CHILDREN THE SAME! BUT MAYBE WE ARE BASTARD.

p.s maybe singapore's tournament is good like Greece ( fantastic joke, i will say it to your friend Aggelinas) but how many players by singapore played in Mons the last ten years? 0 (ZERO?)
In Greece we use to visit our friends house. But and they visit our house. It is a kind moving for both sides. I hope to understand what i mean because my english is not so good.

**Admin** Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:38 pm

There is a Future in Belgium this week (thursday, November 11 because it's a day off here) and for the moment there are 19 registered players (including 3 from a neighboring club from France). Only 1 of them is playing the Open of Rochefort on sunday (and I believe the maximum will be 4). The reason is simple: the players registered for the Future go there because the level is low and they will have a chance to play many games. If they go to Rochefort,t hey will probably not play more than 2 games (and being trashed 2 times is not funny). We need all types of tournaments. That must remain a priority. If FISTF cancels Satellites, Challengers and Futures, for sure my club will not play in any FISTF in the future (excepted Mons because it's very close).

kechris Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:41 pm

You think FISTF doesn't treat Greece the same way like all other countries?
Come on Kostas, don't move that discussion on a personal level again.

Please Heinz stop the fool comments. I said my opinion and this is the same opinion with all greek players.

If FISTF cancels Satellites, Challengers and Futures, for sure my club will not play in any FISTF in the future (excepted Mons because it's very close)

Please Vincent stop these fool blackmails. Why a tournament on a thursday with weak 19 players must be called INTERNATIONAL? There are better ways to take part a weak player in international tournament without play against top class players. Did you think it?

**Admin** Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:04 pm

Please Vincent stop these fool blackmails. Why a tournament on a thursday with weak 19 players must be called INTERNATIONAL? There are better ways to take part a weak player in international tournament without play against top class players. Did you think it?

So you mean FISTF is the federation of the elite players only? Or just the elite players who can afford to travel abroad? In that case, how do you expect to increase the number of active players?

Sorry but when one of my new players starts playing, I tell him "try to win a future before you win an Open".

kechris Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:43 pm

Sorry but when one of my new players starts playing, I tell him "try to win a future before you win an Open"

I organise a team before 4 years and now has 22 players. If you check the list of our names you will see that except 3 names all the others is newcomers. They were newcomers and now more of them are good players.
I didn't ever tell to them "try to win a future before you win an Open".
I told everytime to them 'try to enjoy a tournament before you win a tournament"

Sorry but i know very well the way to increase the REAL number of players. And i know very well to create good players and good clubs.

**Admin** Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:04 pm

Congratulations, Mr Perfect Very Happy

Many of my newcomers are students or can't afford to travel much because they have other priorities (work, babies,...). Life is a choice...

kechris Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:26 pm

Why you get nervous with sarcastic comments, Vincent?
Sorry but i am not feel guilty because i try to do my job as better i can.
I cann't understand. Your newcomers are students with work and babies and they dream to win a "future"!!! Life is a choise... Very good slogan.
Why you didn't organise future in national tournaments? You are vice president. You haven't future in national competitions and you want future in international competitions!!!
We have different ideas for table soccer. You did your ideas the last 7,5 years and you lost your position. Please let me to support my ideas. There aren't reason to continue this dialogue.
Your ideas and my ideas.
Goodnight.

**Admin** Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:37 pm

So, if I understand you, the ambition of a new player should automatically be to become an elite player, right?

Thossa Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Kostas, what is the problem with low level international tournaments for beginners. If you like you can do it Greece, Malta, Italy or whereever as well. You just have to announce it right in time... or not as long as still the profiprovisional FISTF-BoD do whatever they wanna do cheers

kechris wrote:Why you get nervous with sarcastic comments, Vincent?
Sorry but i am not feel guilty because i try to do my job as better i can.
I cann't understand. Your newcomers are students with work and babies and they dream to win a "future"!!! Life is a choise... Very good slogan.
Why you didn't organise future in national tournaments? You are vice president. You haven't future in national competitions and you want future in international competitions!!!
We have different ideas for table soccer. You did your ideas the last 7,5 years and you lost your position. Please let me to support my ideas. There aren't reason to continue this dialogue.
Your ideas and my ideas.
Goodnight.

von K. Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:09 am

Thossa wrote:Kostas, what is the problem with low level international tournaments for beginners. If you like you can do it Greece, Malta, Italy or whereever as well. You just have to announce it right in time... or not as long as still the profiprovisional FISTF-BoD do whatever they wanna do

Thossa, the problem is the decrease in value and respect of the FISTF tournaments. Why does a federation of maybe 1000 active players have 800 tournaments? The figures are probably not correct, but give an idea.

It's the national competitions that should be organised more, and cut some (not all) of the international tournaments. A national federation can accept foreigners for tournaments if they want (we do). I don't see the point for us organising more FISTF events when we have a good circuit of our own. It's better for the FISTF tournaments to concentrate on less in amount, to make them something more.

I believe that was also Kostas idea, but at least I think so, and I believe also for example Mike Burns in the Scotland topic.

I can't understand why a FISTF event is organised by a club, if a national event is not organised.

Heinz Eder Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:00 pm

To represent a club is much easier than representing an association and it is even more difficult to represent 15 countries.
It is more than disgusting if Vincent posts something, to tell him (and me) every time, we were on the board, we lost elections, so all our opinions are automatically wrong (like we are not good enough to comment the ideas of Kostas).
This is a discussion forum and not a "Kostas opinion forum". Discussion means to give his point of view and then try to get out positive things from other comments too. Kostas understands it a bit different, for him it is like a Challenge. I post my ideas and then I try to convince everybody that my ideas are the best. If somebody adds critical things or possible problems with that, and his name is Vincent or Heinz, in the next moment you will read, WHEN YOU WERE SPORTS DIRECTOR or YOU WERE PRESIDENT FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS.
I don't know how informed Kostas is, but when you tell the belgians they should organize national events instead of Satellites you should first inform about their national circuit. They organize those events on top to the national events.
Normally a ranking or the number of countries where tournaments are organized are also something important for sponsors. So I think it is better to have a Satellite in a country with 6 or 7 active players, before I need to let them organize a Grand Prix to have those 7 players and one more country in the ranking of FISTF.
Please see the whole construct and don't pick only one small part out of it. Please think first about the consequences of a "small change" in a small part for the whole construct.
Those people who think it is very easy to change rules should try it now. They only come with one rule they want to change, but again they never see the whole construct. I would like to see a whole rule's set made by Kostas. Where is it?
If you love the game, take back your personal interests and problems with other people and send a complete rule's set how it should be to Olivier, then his sports commission should give you feedback. That's a constructive way to change things, not what you are doing here.
People who have responsibility can't decide only out of their stomach, you have to think first. So people should think first before they blame somebody for acting slower. I would prefer slower acting now than seeing that decisions are only taken without thinking about all the other consequences.
Only saying that in the last 7 years when Vincent was president nothing happened is totally wrong, but of course everything was wrong, because Vincent lost elections, all the elections he won are forgotten suddenly.
That's so populist what is going on here sometimes.
If Vincent wouldn't open that forum, you could write your ideas on a paper at your house and send it by post, dear Kostas.
Your answer to my questions only have been I should stop foolish comments, that's a real answer, on that answer we can continue a constructive discussion. You don't know how to continue with arguments, then there are 2 ways. You throw something in the discussion, like the greeks are the bastards of FISTF, but when I ask, why you think like that, I should stop my foolish comments. Do you make jokes with us, that's not something unimportant, why according on you all greek players feel like FISTF's bastards.
A BIG SORRY TO Luis, hopefully you understand it.

Heinz Eder Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:16 pm

Of course currently FISTF tournaments are not as important anymore as they were, but I don't think the reasons are the Satellites. Challengers and Futures. A compromise could be to reduce the events and maybe even to cancel the International Open, or reduce them at least too.
I have a problem with the International Open, those tournaments have much more problems, they are nothing more than a national tournament in many cases, but they bring a lot of points.
We discuss here about tournaments for players ranked out of the top 100, top 200 or even top 300! Why shouldn't we give those players that chance to play at least 1 event in their country where they play against other players out of the top 300, top 200, or top 100?
Why shouldn't we give that chance to new associations, that their players can enter in a smooth way the ranking?
Why shouldn't we give that chance to organizers to learn how to organize small events first?
We need those events for weaker players, who are not ready to play the top players, that new associations don't start with organizing International Open, where the winner among beginners will get immediately more than 100 points for the win and will enter with his first event the top 150.
In countries where nobody knows table soccer it is not important how you call the tournament, if they want to advertise the tournament, it is enough to say the first international tournament of FISTF in country xy. Nobody cares if the winner will get 20 points or 150 points. The board of FISTF should care about it.
Even if Kostas wants to present it like that, the board of FISTF (loosers) always told new associations to make a national circuit too in combination with organizing small FISTF events like challengers or futures.
Development needs time, for those who don't have the patience i only can say that taking more time is much better than taking less time.

von K. wrote:
Thossa wrote:Kostas, what is the problem with low level international tournaments for beginners. If you like you can do it Greece, Malta, Italy or whereever as well. You just have to announce it right in time... or not as long as still the profiprovisional FISTF-BoD do whatever they wanna do

Thossa, the problem is the decrease in value and respect of the FISTF tournaments. Why does a federation of maybe 1000 active players have 800 tournaments? The figures are probably not correct, but give an idea.

It's the national competitions that should be organised more, and cut some (not all) of the international tournaments. A national federation can accept foreigners for tournaments if they want (we do). I don't see the point for us organising more FISTF events when we have a good circuit of our own. It's better for the FISTF tournaments to concentrate on less in amount, to make them something more.

I believe that was also Kostas idea, but at least I think so, and I believe also for example Mike Burns in the Scotland topic.

I can't understand why a FISTF event is organised by a club, if a national event is not organised.

kechris Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:38 pm

Thossa i will give you a fast answer because i haven't time now.
Thossa wrote:Kostas, what is the problem with low level international tournaments for beginners
I have problem with the red words in your post. No with violet.
I want a system with great tournaments. Maybe with 2 categories or more
No great halls only for the top players and when the weak players decide to participate to Mons as ex to loose the games with 8-0.
I want a real correct system for all. And challenger and futures are not fair for the newcomers. Do you think that W.R. is fair? I can play in future. Do you know it? Is this fair for a newcomer? How we can protect by me by Giancarlo by Davide who played in these low level tournaments and won?
I am not fool. I am not "perfect" or mad as Vincent and Heinz believe.
But i believe that my ideas are better than their ideas. Maybe very modern for them but i like looking to future.
Do you remember that i fight all BoD members except Piero? Do you know that i help total soccer in greece with two promotions? Because i see that the only hope for the future is the real proffesional TOTAL SOCCER.
I help Enrico in Greece before 7 years but his company is only an internet company. We must follow Waddightons project with subbuteo. We need more kids in great tournaments no to poor challengers.

Sorry i must leave.

**Admin** Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:59 pm

kechris wrote:We need more kids in great tournaments no to poor challengers.

We need both!

Heinz Eder Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:27 pm

Kostas you are right with that.
let's try to get concrete.
Please tell me how you would manage it to stop the mentioned players to play those tournaments. What concrete rule (we need rules which are valid for everybody) needs to be done to realize that idea in your opinion?
Your ideas are not modern, they are a kind of modification of the actual system.
You only have to consider the following things.
You have to allow weak players to play against the strong players if they wish to.
You have to find a rule that doesn't allow players like Bom to play a Challenger in Open category for an example.

I hope I got you right!

PS: when did I call you a fool?
I don't think that you are Mr. Perfect but you post here, like you are.

Heinz

kechris wrote:Thossa i will give you a fast answer because i haven't time now.
Thossa wrote:Kostas, what is the problem with low level international tournaments for beginners
I have problem with the red words in your post. No with violet.
I want a system with great tournaments. Maybe with 2 categories or more
No great halls only for the top players and when the weak players decide to participate to Mons as ex to loose the games with 8-0.
I want a real correct system for all. And challenger and futures are not fair for the newcomers. Do you think that W.R. is fair? I can play in future. Do you know it? Is this fair for a newcomer? How we can protect by me by Giancarlo by Davide who played in these low level tournaments and won?
I am not fool. I am not "perfect" or mad as Vincent and Heinz believe.
But i believe that my ideas are better than their ideas. Maybe very modern for them but i like looking to future.
Do you remember that i fight all BoD members except Piero? Do you know that i help total soccer in greece with two promotions? Because i see that the only hope for the future is the real proffesional TOTAL SOCCER.
I help Enrico in Greece before 7 years but his company is only an internet company. We must follow Waddightons project with subbuteo. We need more kids in great tournaments no to poor challengers.

Sorry i must leave.

kechris Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:34 pm

It is the more simple thing in the world.
At first stop the two tournaments every weekend.
Every second weekend a tournament in all corners of Europe.
The players will stop playing in both categories. (it is so funny a veteran to play also in open cat. Is he veteran yes or not).
The open category will split in two categories. I will use two names. Grand prix cat with 100 points for the first and satellite cat with 50 points for the first. If you are good player you will select GP because you believe that you will gain more than 50 points. Maybe is easier for a good palayer to win 50 points but all good players dream the 100 points.
The same for the weak players. The weak player will select satellite cat because he believe that is easier to win 50 points in this category. If he select GP category he will finish last and he will take 0 points.
It is a simple logic. We use the same tactic in our life everytime. Maybe on the first tournaments the people will select wrong cat. But during the season everybody will select the best cat for him. It is very realistic and very democratic because don't need rules or limits.

Do you like the idea? i have a notebook full of ideas like this. Because i spend my time thinking for best solutions for my favourite game no how i can elected in BoD.

Heinz Eder Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:52 pm

so you want to split a tournament with 24 players in open in 2 categories.
worst case the grand prix category will have 8 players and the satellite category will have 16 players.
Why do you let players choose the category they want to play in Open?
How do you want to manage it that there is only 1 tournament every second week-end?
how many tournaments each association can organize in your plans?
You will stop that players are playing in 2 cats, and they can't choose what cat they would like to play?
So a veteran has to play only the veteran's category?
What are you doing if there is a tournament without a veteran's category?
They can't play the tournament then?
Or maybe a bit more realistic!
If there is a U15 player, and there is no U15 section, he can't play the tournament?
Do you only want to tell the veteran's players that they can't play another category?
Let's take the example of Erich Hinkelmann, Günther Bamberzky or some others. Breaking that down on national level would mean, that there is no reason for them to play the national league in open or the national cup right?
According on your plans they can't play the Open World Cup anyway, right?
Are they allowed to play in the Open Nationalteam in your thoughts?
Your plan protects weak Open players to play against Flores or Verhagen, if they don't want to play against them, but it doesn't protect the weak players in all other categories to play against the strongest players in those categories in FISTF tournaments.
As you can see many questions only on 1 post with an idea. we need more clear rules, to write down your words in clear rules is not possible.
I never said that your ideas are not good or I don't like them, but you write that everybody who can't realize your ideas in a clear way in form of rules isn't a good manager, so I will ask all those questions now to every of your ideas and then we will see where we end up.
Let's continue that way, I think it is constructive and will bring a much better result than discussing around all topics only in general.

All those questions are missing information, so you should add your answers to your ideas on your notebook, if you still didn't consider all those things.

Heinz

kechris wrote:It is the more simple thing in the world.
At first stop the two tournaments every weekend.
Every second weekend a tournament in all corners of Europe.
The players will stop playing in both categories. (it is so funny a veteran to play also in open cat. Is he veteran yes or not).
The open category will split in two categories. I will use two names. Grand prix cat with 100 points for the first and satellite cat with 50 points for the first. If you are good player you will select GP because you believe that you will gain more than 50 points. Maybe is easier for a good palayer to win 50 points but all good players dream the 100 points.
The same for the weak players. The weak player will select satellite cat because he believe that is easier to win 50 points in this category. If he select GP category he will finish last and he will take 0 points.
It is a simple logic. We use the same tactic in our life everytime. Maybe on the first tournaments the people will select wrong cat. But during the season everybody will select the best cat for him. It is very realistic and very democratic because don't need rules or limits.

Do you like the idea? i have a notebook full of ideas like this. Because i spend my time thinking for best solutions for my favourite game no how i can elected in BoD.

kechris Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:04 pm

In 1994 i think i saw in Venice-Dolo for first time the new keepers -toccer.
Mr Willy Hoffmann was a very clever man but he took a then a wrong decision. With the new bases and new teams -fistf and toccer figures- it is very easy to score with a high shoot. He thought that the solution was the bigger keeper. The game then lost a piece of realistic with cyclope keepers.
He could decide a lower more realistic goalpost. The real goalpost in 3 to 1 (7.32m - 2.44m).
The table soccer is 2 to 1 (12cm - 6cm).
Nobody for the next 16 years look for a better solution. Every year the keepers are higher and fater. Nobody care for the game only how the producers can create new keepers to gain money.
Who is responsible for this? me?

Heinz Eder Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:13 pm

so there should happen a resizing of the goals to 3:1?
What messure should be changed?
12cm-4cm?
18cm-6cm?
should both messures be changed?
should the messures of the keepers be changed?
should the messures of the ball be changed?

we have a problem with keepers right, but do you think it is enough to check the current rules? How do you check the volume of the figure of the keeper? I think that's the rule which makes problems, what do you think?

I don't say that you are responsible for that.

kechris wrote:In 1994 i think i saw in Venice-Dolo for first time the new keepers -toccer.
Mr Willy Hoffmann was a very clever man but he took a then a wrong decision. With the new bases and new teams -fistf and toccer figures- it is very easy to score with a high shoot. He thought that the solution was the bigger keeper. The game then lost a piece of realistic with cyclope keepers.
He could decide a lower more realistic goalpost. The real goalpost in 3 to 1 (7.32m - 2.44m).
The table soccer is 2 to 1 (12cm - 6cm).
Nobody for the next 16 years look for a better solution. Every year the keepers are higher and fater. Nobody care for the game only how the producers can create new keepers to gain money.
Who is responsible for this? me?

von K. Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:19 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
You have to allow weak players to play against the strong players if they wish to.

Yes, sometimes. But not in almost all competitions, as it is now. The semi-professional section of players and the promotion side of the game also need tournaments for only the top players. Like in all real sports.

Heinz Eder wrote:You have to find a rule that doesn't allow players like Bom to play a Challenger in Open category for an example.

Again I have to say a ranking based on the ELO system or similar is the answer. Of course if a player doesn't play for a year or two, he drops in ranking and can play easier tournaments. But it's an exception and happens also in for example tennis. Although in tennis, I think, for example injuries are taken into consideration, so that a player doesn't drop as much as just by losing always.

More generally there is a need for fresh way of thinking, and espeacially doing things:

The complete tournament and ranking system needs to be seen from clear table. Without the burden of the actual systems, without the burden of other games/sports systems, without the burden of fixed ideas.

Only this way it is possible to come up with the best ideas and solutions. If ideas are only modifications based on the actual system or other games/sports, they will always be limited, and they will always be done separately, without a consideration of the whole.

This doesn't exclude that the actual decisions can be done by modifying the existing. It's just the only way to bring up the best ideas and create the best solutions. When the best ideas and solutions are known, it's time to see which of them and how they can be implemented in our game.

We have to start by creating the most general questions, and answer to those. Then, in subjects needed, the questions get more specific. If more than 1 answer comes up (natural with the diversity of players and countries), we follow all those paths.

A quick example:

What is the goal of the ranking?
Possible answers:
a) Rank players according to quality of play
b) Rank players according to possibility to participate

If answer A is chosen:
How to do this?
a) Giving points according to the level of players in the tournament
b) Giving points according to the amount of participating players
c) Giving points according to results against other players

Maybe A and C are worth following, and so we continue.

And all these questions and answers have no need to be tied to any existing system or handbook or anything. In creative process everything has to be possible, if the best solution is wanted. Implementing the solution to reality comes only after that. And if the best is not possible, we try the 2nd best.

kechris Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:33 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:so you want to split a tournament with 24 players in open in 2 categories.
worst case the grand prix category will have 8 players and the satellite category will have 16 players.
NO MORE TOURNAMENTS WITH 24 PLAYERS
Why do you let players choose the category they want to play in Open?
BOTH CATEGORIES ARE OPEN.
How do you want to manage it that there is only 1 tournament every second week-end?
VERY EASY
how many tournaments each association can organize in your plans?
ONE OR TWO MAXIMUM PER YEAR
You will stop that players are playing in 2 cats, and they can't choose what cat they would like to play?
THEY CAN DO A FREE SELECTION
So a veteran has to play only the veteran's category?
OF COURSE. LIKE IN ALL OTHER SPORTS.
What are you doing if there is a tournament without a veteran's category?
They can't play the tournament then?
THEY CAN PLAY IN OPEN CAT
Or maybe a bit more realistic!
If there is a U15 player, and there is no U15 section, he can't play the tournament?
HE CAN PLAY OPEN LIKE NOW.
Do you only want to tell the veteran's players that they can't play another category?
Let's take the example of Erich Hinkelmann, Günther Bamberzky or some others. Breaking that down on national level would mean, that there is no reason for them to play the national league in open or the national cup right?
IF THEY FEEL VETERAN HE WILL PLAY IN VETERAN. IF THEY FEEL STRONG THEY CAN PLAY OPEN. WE HAVEN'T VETERAN CLUBS SO ERICH AND GUNTHER PLAY EVERY WEEKEND IN TEAM EVENTS WITH OPPONENTS 20 YEARS YOUNGER. I DIDN'T TALK FOR NATIONAL ASSOCIATIONS.
According on your plans they can't play the Open World Cup anyway, right?
CAN YOU PLAY IN U12 U15 U19 AND WOMEN CAT. NO. SO THEY CAN'T PLAY IN OTHER CAT.
Are they allowed to play in the Open Nationalteam in your thoughts?
THE ASSOCIATION DECIDES FOR NATIONAL TEAM
Your plan protects weak Open players to play against Flores or Verhagen, if they don't want to play against them, but it doesn't protect the weak players in all other categories to play against the strongest players in those categories in FISTF tournaments.
MY IDEA WANTS TO PROTECT THE GAME AT FIRST. SCORE 8-0 IS NOT GOOD FOR THE GAME. I CANN'T STOP THE HIGH SCORES. LAST WEEK EIDHOVEN WON FEYENORD 10-0. BUT IS A DERBY WITH SAME POWER TEAMS. I WANT STOP THE GAMES BARCELONA-VANTUZ LICHTENSTEIN.
As you can see many questions only on 1 post with an idea. we need more clear rules, to write down your words in clear rules is not possible.
I INSIST. YOU WANT RULES I WANT SIMPLE AND CLEAR RULES FOR SIMPLE AND CLEAR MINDS.
I never said that your ideas are not good or I don't like them, but you write that everybody who can't realize your ideas in a clear way in form of rules isn't a good manager, so I will ask all those questions now to every of your ideas and then we will see where we end up.
THE TRUTH: I THINK THAT THE LAST YEARS WE HAVEN'T GOOD MANAGERS IN BoD. LOOK THE SITUATION WITH ILLEGAL ELECTIONS WITH 3 MEMBER BoD WITH WRONG STATUTES. YOU CANN'T DECIDE WHICH COUNTRIES CAN VOTE.
Let's continue that way, I think it is constructive and will bring a much better result than discussing around all topics only in general.
I LOVE DISCUSSION BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO OPEN YOUR EYES BUT YOU INSIST THAT WE MUST CONTINUE DISCUSSION FOR THE NEXT YEARS.
All those questions are missing information, so you should add your answers to your ideas on your notebook, if you still didn't consider all those things.
I GAVE ALL YOUR ANSWERS IN FEW MINUTES.
CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ANSWER FOR ME?
WHAT IS YOUR MORE IMPORTANT DECISION AS SPORT DIECTOR FOR 4 YEARS?

Heinz

kechris wrote:It is the more simple thing in the world.
At first stop the two tournaments every weekend.
Every second weekend a tournament in all corners of Europe.
The players will stop playing in both categories. (it is so funny a veteran to play also in open cat. Is he veteran yes or not).
The open category will split in two categories. I will use two names. Grand prix cat with 100 points for the first and satellite cat with 50 points for the first. If you are good player you will select GP because you believe that you will gain more than 50 points. Maybe is easier for a good palayer to win 50 points but all good players dream the 100 points.
The same for the weak players. The weak player will select satellite cat because he believe that is easier to win 50 points in this category. If he select GP category he will finish last and he will take 0 points.
It is a simple logic. We use the same tactic in our life everytime. Maybe on the first tournaments the people will select wrong cat. But during the season everybody will select the best cat for him. It is very realistic and very democratic because don't need rules or limits.

Do you like the idea? i have a notebook full of ideas like this. Because i spend my time thinking for best solutions for my favourite game no how i can elected in BoD.

Heinz Eder Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:49 pm

von K. wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
You have to allow weak players to play against the strong players if they wish to.

Yes, sometimes. But not in almost all competitions, as it is now. The semi-professional section of players and the promotion side of the game also need tournaments for only the top players. Like in all real sports.

Yes sometimes isn't a clear answer too for me. When do you want to allow players to play against the semi-professionals and when don't you want to allow it? Don't you think the players should choose when they want to play against the semi-pros?
Where is the difference to the current system? We have events for semi-professional players, where also some others CAN play, and we have events where most of the semi-professional players are not allowed to take part.

von K. wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:You have to find a rule that doesn't allow players like Bom to play a Challenger in Open category for an example.

Again I have to say a ranking based on the ELO system or similar is the answer. Of course if a player doesn't play for a year or two, he drops in ranking and can play easier tournaments. But it's an exception and happens also in for example tennis. Although in tennis, I think, for example injuries are taken into consideration, so that a player doesn't drop as much as just by losing always.

Why is the ELO ranking the answer? The ELO ranking is only better because you get more points if you win against a much better ranked player. Maybe I didn't understand the system the right way?

von K. wrote:
More generally there is a need for fresh way of thinking, and espeacially doing things:

The complete tournament and ranking system needs to be seen from clear table. Without the burden of the actual systems, without the burden of other games/sports systems, without the burden of fixed ideas.

Only this way it is possible to come up with the best ideas and solutions. If ideas are only modifications based on the actual system or other games/sports, they will always be limited, and they will always be done separately, without a consideration of the whole.

This doesn't exclude that the actual decisions can be done by modifying the existing. It's just the only way to bring up the best ideas and create the best solutions. When the best ideas and solutions are known, it's time to see which of them and how they can be implemented in our game.

We have to start by creating the most general questions, and answer to those. Then, in subjects needed, the questions get more specific. If more than 1 answer comes up (natural with the diversity of players and countries), we follow all those paths.

Totally right, you need to start from the scratch. Anyway, you need a total program which makes sense in every point in combination with all the other points of the program. It doesn't make sense to discuss about single points picked out of a whole program.

von K. wrote:
A quick example:

What is the goal of the ranking?
Possible answers:
1) Rank players according to quality of play
2) Rank players according to possibility to participate

If answer A is chosen:
How to do this?
a) Giving points according to the level of players in the tournament
b) Giving points according to the amount of participating players
c) Giving points according to results against other players

Maybe A and C are worth following, and so we continue.

Point 1:
Of course you also can create a formula which considers the number of events a player plays to reach the number of points. Then you would see how "good" a player really is.
Point 2:
That shouldn't be a fact in my opinion.
Point A:
You need a formula where you consider the rankings of all players taking part in combination with the number of players. Then you will get a coefficient for the tournament. This would also be the solution for B.
Point B:
That's acutally the case. You get more points for playing a tournament with 32 players than playing a tournament with 14 players..
Point C:
Of course it is possible to consider every single result, but without software it is a lot of work.

von K. wrote:
And all these questions and answers have no need to be tied to any existing system or handbook or anything. In creative process everything has to be possible, if the best solution is wanted. Implementing the solution to reality comes only after that. And if the best is not possible, we try the 2nd best.

Generally we should think about it, if it makes sense to have a ranking based on 2 years, if we have every year a World Cup and Europa Cup. The qualification for those events should be based on the results of 1 year and not 2 years. In the end I currently have an advantage twice if I have a good ranking.
That this could be done we need to have 2 things first. The ranking for the qualification needs to be taken every year at the end of the same month for both events (EC and WC).

Heinz Eder Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:21 pm

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:so you want to split a tournament with 24 players in open in 2 categories.
worst case the grand prix category will have 8 players and the satellite category will have 16 players.
NO MORE TOURNAMENTS WITH 24 PLAYERS
How can you be sure, do you think that there will play more players in Argentina for an example if you reduce the events in Europe?
kechris wrote:
Why do you let players choose the category they want to play in Open?
BOTH CATEGORIES ARE OPEN.
I understood that both categories are open, but the players can choose if they want to play the grand prix category or the satellite category, so depending on the starter field you maybe will see more players in the satellite category than in the open category. How would you give points for the tournaments in concrete?
kechris wrote:
How do you want to manage it that there is only 1 tournament every second week-end?
VERY EASY
Great Answer
kechris wrote:
how many tournaments each association can organize in your plans?
ONE OR TWO MAXIMUM PER YEAR
We have currently about 13 members in FISTF and about 20 partner nations in FISTF, the year has 52 weeks in total (but you have christmas and some other holidays) so let's say 50, ok.
So I think 2 are not realistic to realize your plan? Even one will be close.
What are you doing if there are 30 countries organizing 1 event every second week-end and there can be only 1 event per week-end?
What do you plan for the future?
Did you consider possible problems in the different countries, if they can only organize 1 event?
kechris wrote:
You will stop that players are playing in 2 cats, and they can't choose what cat they would like to play?
THEY CAN DO A FREE SELECTION
You hopefully know that you then maybe will kill some categories, which are only existing currently because players can play 2 categories. If you ask Haas Alexander for an example to choose a category, he will never choose the U19 category, if you then have an event with 4 U19 players including Alexander, you will have only 3 so you can throw away the whole U19 and you force 3 other players to play Open too, who maybe don't want to play.
kechris wrote:
So a veteran has to play only the veteran's category?
OF COURSE. LIKE IN ALL OTHER SPORTS.
Like in all other sports? Thomas Muster is currently playing the senior tennis tour and parallel he plays ATP Tour events in Tennis?
kechris wrote:
What are you doing if there is a tournament without a veteran's category?
They can't play the tournament then?
THEY CAN PLAY IN OPEN CAT
Or maybe a bit more realistic!
If there is a U15 player, and there is no U15 section, he can't play the tournament?
HE CAN PLAY OPEN LIKE NOW.
You mix the categories again and a U15 player has to play against the number 150 of the Open ranking, do you think that's funny for a 15 year old child?
kechris wrote:
Do you only want to tell the veteran's players that they can't play another category?
Let's take the example of Erich Hinkelmann, Günther Bamberzky or some others. Breaking that down on national level would mean, that there is no reason for them to play the national league in open or the national cup right?
IF THEY FEEL VETERAN HE WILL PLAY IN VETERAN. IF THEY FEEL STRONG THEY CAN PLAY OPEN. WE HAVEN'T VETERAN CLUBS SO ERICH AND GUNTHER PLAY EVERY WEEKEND IN TEAM EVENTS WITH OPPONENTS 20 YEARS YOUNGER. I DIDN'T TALK FOR NATIONAL ASSOCIATIONS.
According on your plans they can't play the Open World Cup anyway, right?
CAN YOU PLAY IN U12 U15 U19 AND WOMEN CAT. NO. SO THEY CAN'T PLAY IN OTHER CAT.
I talked about individual, according on your ideas, they can't qualify for the Open World Cup, because they are Veteran, right?
kechris wrote:
Are they allowed to play in the Open Nationalteam in your thoughts?
THE ASSOCIATION DECIDES FOR NATIONAL TEAM
Ok
kechris wrote:
Your plan protects weak Open players to play against Flores or Verhagen, if they don't want to play against them, but it doesn't protect the weak players in all other categories to play against the strongest players in those categories in FISTF tournaments.
MY IDEA WANTS TO PROTECT THE GAME AT FIRST. SCORE 8-0 IS NOT GOOD FOR THE GAME. I CANN'T STOP THE HIGH SCORES. LAST WEEK EIDHOVEN WON FEYENORD 10-0. BUT IS A DERBY WITH SAME POWER TEAMS. I WANT STOP THE GAMES BARCELONA-VANTUZ LICHTENSTEIN.
Ook, you call it the protection of the game, it is not important how you call it, but with your ideas you don't manage it 100% to reach what you want with your ideas.
kechris wrote:
As you can see many questions only on 1 post with an idea. we need more clear rules, to write down your words in clear rules is not possible.
I INSIST. YOU WANT RULES I WANT SIMPLE AND CLEAR RULES FOR SIMPLE AND CLEAR MINDS.
I want your ideas in rules, of course, if not you create chaos and in every unclear situation nobody knows what to do. We need in organization the same kind of rules we need when we play. You wrote it in the rule's sector we need clear rules, but all those questions show that your ideas are not clear enough.
kechris wrote:
I never said that your ideas are not good or I don't like them, but you write that everybody who can't realize your ideas in a clear way in form of rules isn't a good manager, so I will ask all those questions now to every of your ideas and then we will see where we end up.
THE TRUTH: I THINK THAT THE LAST YEARS WE HAVEN'T GOOD MANAGERS IN BoD. LOOK THE SITUATION WITH ILLEGAL ELECTIONS WITH 3 MEMBER BoD WITH WRONG STATUTES. YOU CANN'T DECIDE WHICH COUNTRIES CAN VOTE.
You are right, but it has nothing to do with the current points we discuss about. Only an answer off-topic. As far as i know currently only a marketing director is missing in the bod. about the countries it is totally clear which countries are allowed to vote, but there is nobody ready to check that, that's the problem.
kechris wrote:
Let's continue that way, I think it is constructive and will bring a much better result than discussing around all topics only in general.
I LOVE DISCUSSION BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO OPEN YOUR EYES BUT YOU INSIST THAT WE MUST CONTINUE DISCUSSION FOR THE NEXT YEARS.
Let me clearify something. I think that way of discussion is much faster than what we did so far. You tell me your ideas, I ask you all questions I have, you can take the questions and answers and implement it in your ideas. It won't take us years for sure, if your ideas are good enough that there aren't many points open.
kechris wrote:
All those questions are missing information, so you should add your answers to your ideas on your notebook, if you still didn't consider all those things.
I GAVE ALL YOUR ANSWERS IN FEW MINUTES.
CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ANSWER FOR ME?
WHAT IS YOUR MORE IMPORTANT DECISION AS SPORT DIECTOR FOR 4 YEARS?
A concrete answer to your question.
The first year I worked on the transfer rules and the calender beside all the other daily work.
The second year I worked on the tournament monitoring and the sanctions beside all the daily work.
The third year I worked on the material issue (goals, bases and keepers) beside all the daily work.
I took also decisions in the last 3,5 years, but you were not happy with them.
I also had some other plans for the future, but I preferred it to discuss them first and took some more time.
How long did it take you to collect all your ideas on your notebook?
You need to consider that when you are sports director, you only can realize things, if you can make rules out of your ideas, otherwise you will take decisions like the Europa League now, where nobody even knows how many points the winner of the EL will get in WR. That's maybe not the most important point, but as director you always have to take care that there are no mistakes in the idea and you have to check all other things for the consequences and additionally you have to take care that there aren't holes in the rules. You don't need to think of all those things, when you write down only your ideas and thoughts.
You didn't have the daily work of FISTF too, so if I would only need to think about another totally new system, it wouldn't take much time too maybe, but together with other things, you didn't and don't need to care about, things are looking slow for you that's clear.
Additionally you are working alone on your ideas, in a board you have to discuss with at least 2 or 3 people with different views on everything, it also takes some time.
You need to consider all those things before thinking people don't have dreams or wishes about changes. That's why I would like to see you in a board, maybe you can understand things better then and don't blame me for not being so inovative.
You can concentrate all your energy and time on your plans, but you never needed to spend energy to discuss your plans with people from other countries. here on the forum it is something different.

Heinz

kechris wrote:It is the more simple thing in the world.
At first stop the two tournaments every weekend.
Every second weekend a tournament in all corners of Europe.
The players will stop playing in both categories. (it is so funny a veteran to play also in open cat. Is he veteran yes or not).
The open category will split in two categories. I will use two names. Grand prix cat with 100 points for the first and satellite cat with 50 points for the first. If you are good player you will select GP because you believe that you will gain more than 50 points. Maybe is easier for a good palayer to win 50 points but all good players dream the 100 points.
The same for the weak players. The weak player will select satellite cat because he believe that is easier to win 50 points in this category. If he select GP category he will finish last and he will take 0 points.
It is a simple logic. We use the same tactic in our life everytime. Maybe on the first tournaments the people will select wrong cat. But during the season everybody will select the best cat for him. It is very realistic and very democratic because don't need rules or limits.

Do you like the idea? i have a notebook full of ideas like this. Because i spend my time thinking for best solutions for my favourite game no how i can elected in BoD.

kechris Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:31 pm

i CANN'T UNDERSTAND YOU HEINZ. YOU DID SOME QUESTIONS AND I ANSWERED.
BUT YOU CONTINUE MAKING QUESTIONS. SORRY BUT YOU NEED A FULL HANDBOOK IN FORUM BY ME.
I EXPLAIN MY IDEAS. SORRY BUT I CANN'T SPEND ALL MY NIGHT TO ANSWER IN QUESTIONS FOR EVERYTHING. I DID ONLY ONE QUESTION AND I KEEP YOUR ANSWER AND A SMALL YOUR COMMENT.

comment it is totally clear which countries are allowed to vote, but there is nobody ready to check that, that's the problem. no comments

answer The first year I worked on the transfer rules and the calender beside all the other daily work. no comments for the transfer rules
The second year I worked on the tournament monitoring and the sanctions beside all the daily work.no comments for the sanctions
The third year I worked on the material issue (goals, bases and keepers) beside all the daily work. no comments for the keepers

p.s you are not the only person who had daily work. I have 2 kids and i wake up everyday in 7 i am working until afternoon and then i am going to school for dance for my daughter to football training my son or school for english and computers. Many times i am working and the night and you can see what time the night i post in forum. I have 2 afternoon free and i spend these hours with my friends playing table soccer.

Vesa i will give you my ideas for ranking for W.C. and for E.C.

INDIVIDUAL W.C
4 PLAYERS (a team) per country. Two of them by National Association two of them (the best two) by world ranking.
3 teams per country in Champion league. The champion the second and the first of W.R.
3 teams per country in Europa league. The cup winner the third of league and the second of W.R
Of course holders qualify extra.

Group of three in international tournaments. The draw with ranking ( i know many occasions with strange draw...)In greece we call it snake system. For example. For 6 players: no1 in A group, 2 and 3 in group B, no4 and 5 in A group, no6 in group B.
QUALIFY AND THE 3 PLAYERS. But the first of groups will not play barrages or will play with 3rds. So is very important the position in group stages and will stop the strange results...

I want to continue with points but i dont know the technical words. I will ask the help of Drastis or panagios or george. But the number of participations and the final position will give points. In tournament with 64 players the first will gain 384 points. 6 wins in knock out matches x 64 players = 384. The second 5 x 64 =320 The satellite cat will give half points.

the year has 52 weekends. Out Christmas New year (2)Eastern =48. 24 WEEKENDS FOR NATIONAL 24 FOR INTERNATIONAL.
24 INTERN -2 (W.C AND E.C) =22 INTERNATIONAL TOURNAMENTS
HOW MANY COUNTRIES ARE MEMBERS OF FISTF? (FOR ME ONLY THE COUNTRIES WHICH SEND A NATIONAL TEAM IN W.C)
CYPROUS GREECE ITALY MALTA SPAIN GIBRALTAR PORTUGAL ENGLAND WALES SCOTLAND IRELAND MONACO FRANCE BELGIUM HOLLAND GERMANY AUSTRIA CHECZ SWITZERLAND FINLAND DENMARK NORWAY ARE 22 COUNTRIES. IF A COUNTRY REFUSE THEN THIS TOURNAMENT WILL REPLACE BY OTHER COUNTRY. IF A COUNTRY FAIL WILL LOOSE THE TOURNAMENT THE NEXT YEAR.
THE COUNTRIES OUT OF EUROPE CAN USE THE REST 24 WEEKENDS.

Sorry but i am very tired and i cann't continue writing proposals. I am not candidate for sport director.

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