Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

kechris Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:28 pm

von K. wrote:
kechris wrote:
von K. wrote:
(The Sweden-Denmark game in Euro 2004 wasn't fixed and everyone who saw it or knows football knows it. .

Maybe must speak for badminton...

Do you mean that I'm wrong?

If you do, I can tell you that I've worked as a football writer and analyst and I've written many pieces also to the biggest daily newspaper (no trash tabloid) in Finland. I know my football. And that match was never a fix, because of how the game was played and because there was nothing to win for Denmark in the end.

SORRY BUT YOU ARE WRONG.

About the West Germany-Austria I can say that I've only read reports. And if they are true, then the teams in question have been despicable and should have been punished.

IT IS TRUE. YEARS LATER PALYERS BOTH TEAM ACCEPTED.

But, Kostas, the biggest question really is, how do you react if you are cheated the same way? If you like it, what's the problem. If you get angry, then why do you do it to others, then.

PLEASE VESA READ AGAIN MY POSTS. I DIDN'T LIKE THAT SCOTTISH TEAM NO QUALIFIED BECAUSE BEFORE WE DIDN'T PLAY TO WIN. WE APOLOGIE BUT WE DIDN'T CHEAT. WE BELIEVED NO PROBLEM. WE WERE 4 PLAYERS WE TOOK A DECISION BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT BELGIAN TEAM WOULD WIN AND WE DID A MISTAKE BUT WITHOUT TARGET THE SCOTTISH TEAM. WE EXPLAINED TO ALL SCOTTISH PLAYERS WE APOLOGIED SEVERAL TIMES AND TWELVE YEARS AFTER A PERSON CONTINUE TO BLAME ME.

Let's say you lose 1000 euros this way, and are out of the competition even if you won your first game against a poor finnish team in the group, because Mattersburg decides to lose to the finnish team as for their benefit. The poor finnish team wins the group. Do you like it? Is it sport? Is it what you want TF to be?

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY GREEK PLAYERS ARE NO QUALIFY FOR FIXED RESULT IN ABROAD. HUNDRED OCCASIONS. I REMEMBER IN PARIS MY TEAMMATE SIT OUTSIDE TO WATCH THE LAST MATCH OF GROUP AND THE MATCH FINISHED 3-0 BUT ON PAPER WROTE 3-1!!!

You have responsibility for your own actions. Don't say someone else also does it, if you don't accept it, and do it anyway. Children under 10 years know that it's not an excuse for your own actions.

kechris Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:50 pm

von K. wrote:
kechris wrote:
Before you decide who has value to respect -maybe in finland you accept the blackmails or the referees who use his role and want to ban the one team i will you give some examples because all of you proved with your words that for you all things are white and black.

It's not blackmail what Mike did. Maybe it's the language barrier, but he has the right to speak his mind about facts, and he has just told you that he will do it unless he gats compensation for the loss of money. I have also written that you could be prosecuted for sporting fraud, if there would be evidence, because you caused harm to a third party, by fixing a game.

SORRY BUT MANY PEOPLE READ THIS POST AND THEY AGREED THAT IS A BLACKMAIL. IF YOU WANT TO SAVE MIKE I UNDERSTAND.

What Mike said about refereeing you out of the competition, is not right. But it's quite understandable human reaction, after what you did to them, don't you think? It's good that they didn't let them referee you.

MIKE'S REACTION IS UNDERSTANDABLE BUT OUR REACTION IS NOT RESPECTABLE...

You started it, so bear the responsibility and consequences of your actions. Without your match-fixing, do you think Mike would talk about money or say he would have refereed you out? Naturally he would not talk like this.

OK. WE ARE UNFAIR BECAUSE WE FIXXED A MATCH AND MIKE IS FAIR BECAUSE HE WANTED TO DO THE SAME.

In Finland we say: do you jump in the well if someone else jumps there? So stop saying many others do that, too, and use it as excuse. I'm proud to say no player in Finland does it.

IN GREECE WE SAY "OPEN YOUR MOUTH FOR EAT NO TO SPEAK" BECAUSE THE FUTURE CAN PROVE THAT YOU HAD WRONG.

kechris wrote:1.In rugby if a defender catch an attacker before score this a fantastic effort. In football this is freekick and red card. different game different rules same behaviour.

That's partly why Soccer and Rugger went separate ways some 150 years ago. People wanted to play different game with different rules.
FISTF TF is same game for all.

I KEEP THE DIFFERENT RULES

kechris wrote:2.in football before many years the goalkeeper could catch the ball after passing by defender. Then was very usual for waste time. The fifa changed the rule no call cheat the defenders.

The attackers had the opportunity to try to take the ball. There is no limit for possession in football, because it's not possible to keep it all the game if the opposition team tries to take it away actively. FIFA changed the rule not because of cheating, but because it made the game slower and the change brought more dangerous situation near goal, thus more interesting game.

NO. THE RULE CHANGED BECAUSE TO STOP TO WASTE TIME.

The same thing in TF is keeping ball possession. And we didn't call that cheating.

YOU DON'T KNOW THE ETHIC RULES FOR POSSECION?

kechris wrote:3. in chess the draw is very usual. The two players can agree for "pat" after few movings. So for you the chess is an unfair game for cheating?

Some games do have different interpretations also due to the nature of the game. A tight chess game is very difficult to win without risks. However no chess player does that if he knows he is the favourite to win the game, which would be similar to your situation. Your example only applies to very tight games of the very best, when an expert can see that the game will inevitably end in stalemate (pat), because of the early positions of the figures. So it's no purpose playing it to the end.

I KEEP THE LAST SENTENCE.

The same thing in TF would be the last minutes of a game when neither one wants to risk too much.

kechris wrote:4. In a knock out matches your soccer favourite team won the first game 3-1. On the second match your team loose 1-0 since first minute. And after decide to play the next 89 minutes full defence to keep the score. Are they cheating because they didn't play for win?

Who is the third party that got hurt? Did they concede the first goal on purpose to lose? No, they played to win over the 2 legs.

I AM SORRY BUT YOU SAY THAT WE MUST PLAY FOR WIN. ONLY FOR WIN IF THIRD PARTY? THE SECOND PARTY CAN ACCEPT THIS BEHAVIOUR? AND IF THIS MATCH IN GROUP AND BOTH TEAMS QUALIFY WITH THIS SCORE THEN THE SCORE IS FIXXED?

Same in TF, if you are losing your own game in a team game, when the team is winning. You keep the score low.

BRAVO

kechris wrote:5. in tennis ping pong chess billiard the crowd must be silence. But in football basket volley the crowd shout to help the favourite team. All the fans are cheating?

Different sports. In TF playing with FISTF rules is said in Finland to be "playing in a protestant church" (with silence), while with finnish rules it's about as much talk and shouting you can do.

YOU USED THE WORD RULES AGAIN.

kechris wrote:6. in champions league the first years the teams in last match of groups select the opponent in next round. After uefa changed the system and select draw.

When was this? Do you mean the European Cup? Can you give an example, and evidence that someone lost on purpose?

MANY EXAMPLES

kechris wrote:7. again in champion league the teams whιψη qualify play the last match of group with no the good starting eleven. Are they cheating?

No, they are not, if it's not forbidden (it is forbidden in Premier League to play a weakened team without valid reason, by the way). But it's not allowed to decide before the match that the weakened team should lose. They play as well as they can.

SO WE PLAYED AS WELL AS WE CAN...

For example Parma played the whole UEFA Cup 2004-05 with a second squad, because they had trouble staying in Serie A. They got to the semi finals, so a weakened team is not necessarily a losing team.

Did you play a weakened team and lose because of that (no)? Or did you decide before the game that you will lose (you said you did)?

kechris wrote:8. last year teams in champion league won until 80 minutes 3-1 and finally lost 3-4. Do you hear any team to ask money for cheating?

That's football. If there was money involved, it's bribery, and a crime. If the result was fixed and the team lost on purpose, it's sporting fraud. Was it? Or was it just sport.

OK. MAYBE I MUST STOP AFTER THIS.

Do you think that Yugoslavia allowed Spain to win the last game here (link)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2000_Group_C#Yugoslavia_vs_Spain

No, it just happens in football.

kechris wrote:9. in formula 1 the teams has two drivers. How many times you read that the captain asked by the leader driver to allow the other driver to be first?

Team orders are allowed in Formula 1.

NO. READ THE RULES

They have been discussed, and they have been allowed. They only irritate the 2nd drivers. I don't like that, but then again, for me Formula 1 is nonsense and not a sport at all anymore, but an Ecclestone business.

The international motorsport association (FIA) can't be member of Olympic committee, because of rules like these (among other things).

TABLE SOCCER IS OLYMPIC GAME?

kechris wrote:10. in america they have death penalty. In asia they cut the hands to thiefs. In some countries drugs are legal and in other countries alchool is illegal.

Are you saying, it's fine to do that in Greece, what you did? I'd like to see all greek players agree on that after they dropped out of a competition in that manner... Don't make me laugh. I don't think anyone thinks it's ok, if it happens to himself, which means it's ethically considered wrong.

I WILL ANSWER THE NIGHT FOR ETHIC, I HAVE A FANTASTIC EXAMPLE FOR FINISH.

Kostas, your examples are purely nonsense in this case. None of them had anything to do with your case. Instead you decided not to comment on the cases I brought up, which had everything to do with your case, because they were similar.

I'm tired of this kind of argumentation. It's a waste of time. Didn't they teach ethics at your school? Ethics are not written rules or laws, if you didn't know (I know you do know). And reading you over the years, you constantly bring up things that are based on ethics. And then, when ethical argumentation suddenly is against you, you decide it's just about rules, and act as an ethicless lawyer (which you claim to hate, when they are against you).

kechris Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:04 pm

von K. wrote:
I'm tired of this kind of argumentation. It's a waste of time. Didn't they teach ethics at your school? Ethics are not written rules or laws, if you didn't know (I know you do know). And reading you over the years, you constantly bring up things that are based on ethics. And then, when ethical argumentation suddenly is against you, you decide it's just about rules, and act as an ethicless lawyer (which you claim to hate, when they are against you).

Vesa i am also tired. Keep for you your opinion for me and greek for ethics and i keep my mind for me.
I promised an example.
Before few years a greek player said a story by Finland tournament. He played with a local player and the the ref was also local.
The finland player as attacker did a fast shoot. The greek defender had his hand in penalty area but close to side line. He try to block but the shoot was with moving ball so the greek defender could not manage to block. The ball after shoot knocked with power to cross bar and the ball continue with direction for throw in. The ball touch on greek's player hand and the finland ref said penalty !!!
The greek player said that was by accident the ball had not direction for goal so the decision penalty was totally wrong. The ref said that the rules are clear. Touch the ball in penalty area is penalty !!! and after the finland player score with penalty. I am sure that you remember the occasion.
Were this penalty ethic? Were the ref ethic? were the scorer ethic?

PLEASE STOP THE COMMENTS THAT GREEKS ARE NOT ETHIC AND NORTH EUROPEAN IS ETHIC. DO YOU KNOW WHICH EUROPEAN COUNTRY HAS THE SMALLER NUMBER OF DIVORCES? GREECE. IF I SUPPORT THAT GREECE RESPECT THE FAMILY MORE IS TRUE? IS ETHIC?

Last year i decided to stop playing in official national and international tournaments. There are 10 teams in greece and the 7 this summer asked me to restart and to play for them. More of them wanted me to help create team as i did in my ex team. Many players of my ex team asked me to create new team. Do you know that 90% of active greek players asked and have team-bases with figures- by my hands. I am not seller or reseller. I do no for profit but because i love game.
Finally accepted to be trainer for a team away by athens "achaioi patras" 200 km away a new club without ask money and i pay my tickets to travel there. And i decided to accept the proposal to play for last time for Champions League for the more famous greek team Falcons who in past they did strong critisize to me. And they host me now as a good friend even greek federation -only two members of BoD - doesn't allow me to play.

Good night by Greece.
A no respectable player.
But if i was rich and i can give 1000e i will be again a good guy...

mikeburns Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:00 am

Kechris you have lost the plot here!!

Anyway I just want to make one thing clear, we had already beaten the belgian team by the time you played them so you knew exactly was happening.

Everyone knows you cheated, end of story. You have admitted that here. You are not sorry at all, if you were sorry you would not have lost the match in the first place.

You were wrong just accept this for once in your life.

I am not blackmailing, how can I blackmail you when everybody already knows the situation?? My problem is you say you are a good guy and fair player, i say your not and I have the proof. I wont let you tell people you are a fair guy when you are not!! The only way to prove to me you are sorry is to repay the money we wasted on that tournament. You dont have to pay it all yourself, there was 4 players in the team, you, Plytas, Papakonstantinou and one other player! Split it 4 ways and it is
only 250 euros each!

georgy Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:19 am

WoW!!!
So many posts in the last 10 days!

The following is parts of what I wrote then:
"his interpretations of ANY situation, ALWAYS fit perfectly the virtual reality he has created in his mind, in which he is always the good, the innocent, the fighter and the others are bad etc...
....
You are always the correct one? Nothing is ever your fault? Well, you and ... Jesus.
....
Kechris sees everything black and white. "If you are not with me then you are supporter of the other."
Well in my case at least, one thing is certain. I am certainly NOT with you, because for me, now that I know you, your way will never solve any conflict. It will just create more, even when there is no problem! ..."
lol!

After reading all these post from others I thought that I had a deja vu (of the last 3 years)!!!!

As you see Vesa, Kostas's (ooopppssss are you Kechris going to consider "Kostas" as intimate/friendly as you did when I said "Lazaros" Cool

--- please no!!!!) argumentation, is totally logic-less.
In such cases, having a DISCUSSION leads nowhere, since there is never going to exist a common ground/base.
No matter what you write, he will understand whatever he wants/suits him.
I.e.1 you used arguments to explain about Sweden-Denmark, but .... YOU ARE WRONG!!! Shocked

I.e.2 I said what the FOREIGN refs decided about the semi-final in CL, he presented it as I was trying to play the lawyer of Papa and Atlas.

The last example was the most successful case to describe the statement above!
I paste it, since it has to do also with me.

"Before few years a greek player said a story by Finland tournament. He played with a local player and the the ref was also local.
The finland player as attacker did a fast shoot. The greek defender had his hand in penalty area but close to side line. He try to block but the shoot was with moving ball so the greek defender could not manage to block. The ball after shoot knocked with power to cross bar and the ball continue with direction for throw in. The ball touch on greek's player hand and the finland ref said penalty !!!
The greek player said that was by accident the ball had not direction for goal so the decision penalty was totally wrong. The ref said that the rules are clear. Touch the ball in penalty area is penalty !!! and after the finland player score with penalty. I am sure that you remember the occasion.
Were this penalty ethic? Were the ref ethic? were the scorer ethic?"

Can any moderately logical person tell me how is this example relevant?
What does it prove? I guess Finns have NO ETHICS tongue

Finns (and not only them) interpret the rules literally, others try to see what would be more "fair" according to their subjective opinion. End of story.
In Greece we would never give a penalty in such a case, in other countries they do.
This, in my opinion, is mainly one of the many cases that need clarification/uniformity (I hope this is the correct word) all over Europe, because each country has a different interpetation of some rules.
But only Kechris would ever think to use this example as an argument for his defence!!

I do not know if Kechris is a cheat, in my subjective opinion for example he is an irrational (in order not to say crazy) narcissist.
In my case at least he is also a thief, because he has the nerve not to return (I never gave it to him personally!) to me the digital pachymeter that I brought from Finland FOR THE TEAM.
And before someone says that my way to attack him publicly is not the nicest way, I just say that
I have asked for it privately through common friends several times after losing hope that he would have the decency to return it on his own, I asked it also directly the only time I spoke with him when I saw him, and he himself then accepted the obvious, that it is not his. But still no sign of it! Well how do you call this, since he is not a member of Olympia since January? Let's see how long will it take still?

And one answer to drastis about his ... comment, since he decided to act as a lawyer: "I really love the way you talk about your ex-team-mates".
The main mistake in the previous sentence is that you used PLURAL. It is just singular "ex-team-mate". Unless you consider that Kechris counts for more than one. Very Happy

If you want to use plural, you have to say it about his comments about his EX-teammates.

"The last one should close the door" !!!! (public comment in the greek forum among others about his BAD ex-teammates, since he thought or hoped??? that the team will be destroyed after his "departure" (well unfortunately for him, fortunately for us it is the opposite, and everything is QUIET since then! Coincidence? Don't think so!)
"There is god" (his first comment to his ex-teammate when he heard that after a heavy rain, there was water in our clubhouse!!!!! I could not believe my ears when I heard this!
I guess he will say it was a joke! Well .... NO COMMENT.

Do you get the difference now?
If not I can continue with more examples.

P.S. By the way Greece is not the country with the lowest divorce rate in Europe. Do a simple search.
The last paragraph, as always "I praise myself". Well usually it is better to let others do it, but whom am I kidding here?

kechris Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:05 am

can you write your lies in greek forum?
many greeks want to laugh.
especially the point for rules and ethic

please can you ask your teammate who said "there is god"? me or him?
and why phoned me first of 25 persons when happened the problem with water? i was not his teammate.

in greece many people laugh with your comment in previous post when you write that i split greece federation when i was in same side with papako and koutroul. Because you also were and i left this side when Ι saw their behaviour and you are their supporter now.

kechris Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:21 am

mikeburns wrote:Kechris you have lost the plot here!!

NO

Anyway I just want to make one thing clear, we had already beaten the belgian team by the time you played them so you knew exactly was happening.

YOU ARE LIAR. ATLAS-SCOTT ATLAS-BEL SCOT-BEL

Everyone knows you cheated, end of story. You have admitted that here. You are not sorry at all, if you were sorry you would not have lost the match in the first place.

I AM NOT LIAR. I SAID THE TRUTH FROM FIRST TIME.

You were wrong just accept this for once in your life.

I SAID THE TRUTH. WE (no me) ARE WRONG BUT NO CHEAT

I am not blackmailing, how can I blackmail you when everybody already knows the situation??

NO. THE PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW THE BLACKMAIL. I POSTED IT. AND THEY KNEW YOUR SITUATION WITH LIES BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO PROVE THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT FOR BLACKMAIL.

My problem is you say you are a good guy and fair player, i say your not and I have the proof.

I THINK THAT I AM FAIR AND STRAIGHT. I DID SAY LIE EVEN THE TRUTH WAS AGAINST ME

I wont let you tell people you are a fair guy when you are not!! The only way to prove to me you are sorry is to repay the money we wasted on that tournament.

THE SORRY FOR YOU HAS VALUE 250E? NO ASK SORRY WHEN YOU DOING A WRONG. GIVE A CHECK...

You dont have to pay it all yourself, there was 4 players in the team, you, Plytas, Papakonstantinou and one other player! Split it 4 ways and it is
only 250 euros each!

YOU CAN ASK BY THEM, ALONE. I WILL ASK DOUBLE FOR EXTRA AFTER 12 YEARS

mikeburns Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:02 pm

Kechris,

When EVERYDODY comes out and says "you are wrong" how can you still argue that you are right??

Everything you post here nearly everybody disagrees with! It astounds me that you still come on here and claim you are right or innocent!

I mean what sort of f**ked up logic is admitting you are wrong and then saying you are not wrong in the same sentence!!?? Incredible stuff!

I know what happened that day, you do as well. You lost a game on purpose, you cheated, you should be ashamed. That is all! We are not talking about anything else that you want to dream up, we are talking specifically about that one match. YOU as in KOSTAS KECHRIS lost a match deliberately, therefore that makes you a cheat and an untrustworthy person!

END.

kechris Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:05 am

everybody?
no
mike when you understand the difference between i did wrong i apologie and i didn't cheat and i refused to pay money in a blackmail for apologie after 12 years then you can understand how μαλακας you are
END

mikeburns Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:14 am

kechris wrote:everybody?
no
mike when you understand the difference between i did wrong i apologie and i didn't cheat and i refused to pay money in a blackmail for apologie after 12 years then you can understand how μαλακας you are
END

It was 2005.

You are a cheat. I accept no apology for it because you are not sorry. If you are not a cheat then when are you apologising??

I said about 10 pages I am out, I really am finished now because I cant be bothered with this bullshit chat and I dont want to subject anyone else to it anymore. You can keep arguing with yourself from now on. Enjoy!

kechris Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:37 am

can you find the word cheat in the follow post?

Ferrari inflict gearbox penalty on Felipe Massa in Austin

Grid penalty ensures teammate Alonso starts on the clean side of the grid.

In what is bound to be viewed as an incredibly cynical move, the Ferrari team broke the seal on Felipe Massa's gearbox ahead of the United States Grand Prix. In doing so they have ensured Massa takes a five place grid penalty, thereby promoting lead driver Fernando Alonso forward a position and crucially onto the clean side of the grid.
Alonso leads Massa in AustinAlonso leads Massa in AustinCredit: Pirelli S.p.A

Massa had qualified ahead of Alonso for only the second time this season, but his 7th place starting slot meant that the only man able to challenge championship leader Sebastian Vettel for the title this season would have to start from the dirty side of the grid. The five place penalty means Massa will start Sunday's race from 12th place, while Alonso inherits the coveted 7th place.

Red Bull presumably have the option of forcing Mark Webber to take a similar penalty, which would force Alonso back onto the unfavourable side of the grid, albeit another place further forward.

Ferrari Alonso Massa cheating?

Heinz Eder Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:36 am

Are you now looking convulsively for an explanation that your acting wasn't cheating?
Maybe we should call it a great achievement of tactical playing in a tablesoccer team match?

You say it was wrong what you did, but of course it wasn't cheating, maybe you could explain to all of us who don't have any idea of anything, what cheating means?

Ferrari of course cheated! you maybe should take the time to read the description of the word in a lexikon. I read it on www.leo.org and it totally matches with the thing your team did.
Anyway the lexikon surely is wrong and you can give us the "real" meaning of the word.

Heinz

kechris wrote:
can you find the word cheat in the follow post?

Ferrari inflict gearbox penalty on Felipe Massa in Austin

Grid penalty ensures teammate Alonso starts on the clean side of the grid.

In what is bound to be viewed as an incredibly cynical move, the Ferrari team broke the seal on Felipe Massa's gearbox ahead of the United States Grand Prix. In doing so they have ensured Massa takes a five place grid penalty, thereby promoting lead driver Fernando Alonso forward a position and crucially onto the clean side of the grid.
Alonso leads Massa in AustinAlonso leads Massa in AustinCredit: Pirelli S.p.A

Massa had qualified ahead of Alonso for only the second time this season, but his 7th place starting slot meant that the only man able to challenge championship leader Sebastian Vettel for the title this season would have to start from the dirty side of the grid. The five place penalty means Massa will start Sunday's race from 12th place, while Alonso inherits the coveted 7th place.

Red Bull presumably have the option of forcing Mark Webber to take a similar penalty, which would force Alonso back onto the unfavourable side of the grid, albeit another place further forward.

Ferrari Alonso Massa cheating?

von K. Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:08 pm

Kostas, your answers are so full of nonsense, that I'd like to answer them. However it's clearly a waste of time. And as you don't give examples, when asked, and you don't give any reasons (like the Sweden-Denmark game, where after having watched the game 3 times at the time bacuse of this theory, I could give you about 10 reasons saying it wasn't fixed, and have already given you some). So I will not bother to answer you point by point.

kechris wrote:von K. wrote:
I'm tired of this kind of argumentation. It's a waste of time. Didn't they teach ethics at your school? Ethics are not written rules or laws, if you didn't know (I know you do know). And reading you over the years, you constantly bring up things that are based on ethics. And then, when ethical argumentation suddenly is against you, you decide it's just about rules, and act as an ethicless lawyer (which you claim to hate, when they are against you).

Vesa i am also tired. Keep for you your opinion for me and greek for ethics and i keep my mind for me.
I promised an example.
Before few years a greek player said a story by Finland tournament. He played with a local player and the the ref was also local.
The finland player as attacker did a fast shoot. The greek defender had his hand in penalty area but close to side line. He try to block but the shoot was with moving ball so the greek defender could not manage to block. The ball after shoot knocked with power to cross bar and the ball continue with direction for throw in. The ball touch on greek's player hand and the finland ref said penalty !!!
The greek player said that was by accident the ball had not direction for goal so the decision penalty was totally wrong. The ref said that the rules are clear. Touch the ball in penalty area is penalty !!! and after the finland player score with penalty. I am sure that you remember the occasion.
Were this penalty ethic? Were the ref ethic? were the scorer ethic?

I'm sorry, Kostas, but this has got nothing to do with you actions.

I remember this. I don't remember who the head referee was, but I don't think it was a finn. We discussed this at the tournament. George said that in Greece you interpret it like you said. But that interpretation is against the rules of the game. We don't think it's a good rule, but it is a rule. The hand was in the penalty area.

It's a pity we have to have finnish referees, because we have few foreigners.

Your actions, on the other hand, are a sporting fraud, because fixing a match is not allowed in sports. And you have said yourself that you fixed it.

kechris wrote:PLEASE STOP THE COMMENTS THAT GREEKS ARE NOT ETHIC AND NORTH EUROPEAN IS ETHIC.

Kostas, where have I said such thing? Please quote it here. I know greeks who are fair and greeks who cheat, and I know finns who are fair and finns who cheat (in TF I know only 1, who has effectively been frozen out of the game because of cheating and bad sportsmanship). But it's also statistical truth, that Scandinavia is the world's most uncorrupt area whereas Greece and Latin Europe have huge problems with corruption. But I have also witnessed from best seats in Rain the WC final between Flores and Bertelli, which was astonishing in fair play (they practically didn't need the referee).

Despite all this, I always view things and persons case by case based on evidence and arguments (you also, when others have written things about you, just like when you wrote to me about Koutis). I have seen very fair actions by greeks, and I applaud that. And I have seen appalling conduct by greeks in TF and I condemn it. I also attack ferociously any finn who tries to bend the rules (and I mean sporting rules, not only rules of the game). Any finn who loses a game on purpose to gain advantage for himself and at the same hurts someone else, deserves no respect from me.

Here I was talking about you and your team. You lost on purpose to gain advantage, and at the same time you destroyd Mike's teams tournament. You deserve no respect for that.

I hope you answer this. Do you think it's good for TF that you do that? Do you consider it the right way to support TF as a hobby for kids? You love the game, so you should act for the benefit of the game, and I want to know if you do that.

von K. wrote:Are you saying, it's fine to do that in Greece, what you did? I'd like to see all greek players agree on that after they dropped out of a competition in that manner... Don't make me laugh. I don't think anyone thinks it's ok, if it happens to himself, which means it's ethically considered wrong.

Can you, please, answer this, too? (Answer means that you answer the question, and not that you write some example of Finland that has nothing to do with this.) If you can honestly say that the majority of greek players are happy to go out in this manner, then I can understand that it's ethically correct in Greece.

It's bad enough that you did it in the first place, but if you can't accept that you cheated Mike's team (I don't know Mike, and have no reason to take his side apart from the facts), I don't see any common platform for discussion regarding fair play. So I stop here.

kechris Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:13 am

von K. wrote:Kostas, your answers are so full of nonsense, that I'd like to answer them. However it's clearly a waste of time. And as you don't give examples, when asked, and you don't give any reasons (like the Sweden-Denmark game, where after having watched the game 3 times at the time bacuse of this theory, I could give you about 10 reasons saying it wasn't fixed, and have already given you some). So I will not bother to answer you point by point.

1.you insist that sweden -denmark no fixed

kechris wrote:von K. wrote:
I'm tired of this kind of argumentation. It's a waste of time. Didn't they teach ethics at your school? Ethics are not written rules or laws, if you didn't know (I know you do know). And reading you over the years, you constantly bring up things that are based on ethics. And then, when ethical argumentation suddenly is against you, you decide it's just about rules, and act as an ethicless lawyer (which you claim to hate, when they are against you).

Vesa i am also tired. Keep for you your opinion for me and greek for ethics and i keep my mind for me.
I promised an example.
Before few years a greek player said a story by Finland tournament. He played with a local player and the the ref was also local.
The finland player as attacker did a fast shoot. The greek defender had his hand in penalty area but close to side line. He try to block but the shoot was with moving ball so the greek defender could not manage to block. The ball after shoot knocked with power to cross bar and the ball continue with direction for throw in. The ball touch on greek's player hand and the finland ref said penalty !!!
The greek player said that was by accident the ball had not direction for goal so the decision penalty was totally wrong. The ref said that the rules are clear. Touch the ball in penalty area is penalty !!! and after the finland player score with penalty. I am sure that you remember the occasion.
Were this penalty ethic? Were the ref ethic? were the scorer ethic?

I'm sorry, Kostas, but this has got nothing to do with you actions.

I remember this. I don't remember who the head referee was, but I don't think it was a finn. We discussed this at the tournament. George said that in Greece you interpret it like you said. But that interpretation is against the rules of the game. We don't think it's a good rule, but it is a rule. The hand was in the penalty area.

2. if i accept your wrong way to explain the rules, the finnish ref and the finnish player had ethic?

It's a pity we have to have finnish referees, because we have few foreigners.

Your actions, on the other hand, are a sporting fraud, because fixing a match is not allowed in sports. And you have said yourself that you fixed it.

kechris wrote:PLEASE STOP THE COMMENTS THAT GREEKS ARE NOT ETHIC AND NORTH EUROPEAN IS ETHIC.

Kostas, where have I said such thing? Please quote it here. I know greeks who are fair and greeks who cheat, and I know finns who are fair and finns who cheat (in TF I know only 1, who has effectively been frozen out of the game because of cheating and bad sportsmanship). But it's also statistical truth, that Scandinavia is the world's most uncorrupt area whereas Greece and Latin Europe have huge problems with corruption. But I have also witnessed from best seats in Rain the WC final between Flores and Bertelli, which was astonishing in fair play (they practically didn't need the referee).

3. i think that i read a racism comment in bold

Despite all this, I always view things and persons case by case based on evidence and arguments (you also, when others have written things about you, just like when you wrote to me about Koutis). I have seen very fair actions by greeks, and I applaud that. And I have seen appalling conduct by greeks in TF and I condemn it. I also attack ferociously any finn who tries to bend the rules (and I mean sporting rules, not only rules of the game). Any finn who loses a game on purpose to gain advantage for himself and at the same hurts someone else, deserves no respect from me.

4. one more time until to understand. we played the first two matches so we didn't select to hurt someone.

Here I was talking about you and your team. You lost on purpose to gain advantage, and at the same time you destroyd Mike's teams tournament. You deserve no respect for that.

5. do you INTEREST to know how many greeks were destroyed in abroad? NO. Because you think that more greeks are unfair and welldone a fix result against them.

I hope you answer this. Do you think it's good for TF that you do that? Do you consider it the right way to support TF as a hobby for kids? You love the game, so you should act for the benefit of the game, and I want to know if you do that.

6. for me table soccer is hobby. Hobby for all ages. I help all to have fan. But we must look at first to kids and after the old.

von K. wrote:Are you saying, it's fine to do that in Greece, what you did? I'd like to see all greek players agree on that after they dropped out of a competition in that manner... Don't make me laugh. I don't think anyone thinks it's ok, if it happens to himself, which means it's ethically considered wrong.

7. before you laugh ask your greek friends.

Can you, please, answer this, too? (Answer means that you answer the question, and not that you write some example of Finland that has nothing to do with this.) If you can honestly say that the majority of greek players are happy to go out in this manner, then I can understand that it's ethically correct in Greece.

8. i will use your answer for good and bad rules but it is a rule. No rule about my selection to play good or bad so no problem.

It's bad enough that you did it in the first place, but if you can't accept that you cheated Mike's team (I don't know Mike, and have no reason to take his side apart from the facts), I don't see any common platform for discussion regarding fair play. So I stop here.

9.Vesa i see your second side. Fair play is an offer, no something for to ask. Did you know in Finland?
Fair play sleeping in decision for penalty?
What is important rules or ethic? Because sometimes you ask ethic and sometimes you ask the rules.
I AGREE. STOP HERE

Heinz Eder Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:34 am

Kostas, the word racism has nothing to do with the part of Vesa's posting you refer on. There are official statistics of UNO-organizations telling the same and they are accepted by the countries. So if you don't accept those facts, it is up to you, but calling somebody racist who refers on those facts, is another nonsense.

Would you tell a child to loose on purpose?
You are trainer of a new club in Greece, would you tell them to do loose on purpose?

Heinz

von K. Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:19 pm

kechris wrote:
1.you insist that sweden -denmark no fixed

Yes, and you (nor anyone else for that matter) still haven't given any reasons to think otherwise. So give reasons based on solid argumentation or stop commenting, please.

kechris wrote:2. if i accept your wrong way to explain the rules, the finnish ref and the finnish player had ethic?

Can you explain what you mean, please. I don't understand.

kechris wrote:
kechris wrote:PLEASE STOP THE COMMENTS THAT GREEKS ARE NOT ETHIC AND NORTH EUROPEAN IS ETHIC.

Kostas, where have I said such thing? Please quote it here. I know greeks who are fair and greeks who cheat, and I know finns who are fair and finns who cheat (in TF I know only 1, who has effectively been frozen out of the game because of cheating and bad sportsmanship). But it's also statistical truth, that Scandinavia is the world's most uncorrupt area whereas Greece and Latin Europe have huge problems with corruption. But I have also witnessed from best seats in Rain the WC final between Flores and Bertelli, which was astonishing in fair play (they practically didn't need the referee).

3. i think that i read a racism comment in bold

You are quite unbelievable. Shouldn't you be a lawyer? I have in clear words written that I don't consider all greeks corrupt or bad despite this statistic. ANd I have clearly written that I don't consider all scandinavians fair despite this statistic. Don't you have access to such statistics?

Calling me racist is an insult of the highest order. You seem to have great problems in using the right words.

Can you, please, answer my question above? Where have I written this:

kechris wrote:PLEASE STOP THE COMMENTS THAT GREEKS ARE NOT ETHIC AND NORTH EUROPEAN IS ETHIC.

An answer, please. Dont use the cheap racist card to avoid answering, especially as you clearly are unable to understand what racism means and what I wrote about the statistics.

kechris wrote:4. one more time until to understand. we played the first two matches so we didn't select to hurt someone.

You selected to hurt someone, because you lost on purpose. In sport it is a sporting fraud to lose on purpose.

kechris wrote:Here I was talking about you and your team. You lost on purpose to gain advantage, and at the same time you destroyd Mike's teams tournament. You deserve no respect for that.

5. do you INTEREST to know how many greeks were destroyed in abroad? NO. Because you think that more greeks are unfair and welldone a fix result against them.

In here we are talking about your team against Mike's. If you present me with evidence of greek teams being treated the same way by others, I condemn the others too, just like I did here with the Austria-West Germany match. If it would be a finnish team, I would suggest they would be banned by our association even from finnish tournaments.

You also have short memory. Don't you remember that I supported Olympia's cause when you were in trouble in Greece. I also wanted to take this up in the council of nations and Pere's sport committee, but I can't remember if I did make it before I changed from the council to the committee and before the committee resigned.

Unlike you, I use the same measurement for each action regardless of the persons or the nations involved. I applaud greek fair players, and I condemn the unfair finns.

And you still don't get it. If you are so outraged by what happens to greeks and others, why do you do it yourself?

kechris wrote:I hope you answer this. Do you think it's good for TF that you do that? Do you consider it the right way to support TF as a hobby for kids? You love the game, so you should act for the benefit of the game, and I want to know if you do that.

6. for me table soccer is hobby. Hobby for all ages. I help all to have fan. But we must look at first to kids and after the old.

Yes, but why do you give such bad example to kids with your actions, then? And you did not answer the question. Do you think it's good for the game to fix matches like you did (and apparently according to you, many others also do)?

kechris wrote:
von K. wrote:Are you saying, it's fine to do that in Greece, what you did? I'd like to see all greek players agree on that after they dropped out of a competition in that manner... Don't make me laugh. I don't think anyone thinks it's ok, if it happens to himself, which means it's ethically considered wrong.

7. before you laugh ask your greek friends.

Can you just answer me, please. Is it so that the majority of greeks have no problem being out of a competition after someone else fixes a match. I don't think you are. I don't think Georgy is. I don't think Aggelinas' brothers are. I don't think Koutis is. Is there anyone who is? Answer me, please. If your answer is yes, and it's the truth, then I don't laugh, I'll cry. (I was not saying I'm laughing at you or the greeks, by the way.)

kechris wrote:Can you, please, answer this, too? (Answer means that you answer the question, and not that you write some example of Finland that has nothing to do with this.) If you can honestly say that the majority of greek players are happy to go out in this manner, then I can understand that it's ethically correct in Greece.

8. i will use your answer for good and bad rules but it is a rule. No rule about my selection to play good or bad so no problem.

You didn't answer the question.

There are laws about sporting fraud, which are there to protect for example third parties. If Mike would like, he could take you to court and demand compensation.

Just answer the question about the majority of greeks accepting without protest to be out after some other players fix a match.

kechris wrote:9.Vesa i see your second side. Fair play is an offer, no something for to ask. Did you know in Finland?

I didn't undestand your comment about my second side. But yes, we do. However did you know (not in Greece, just you) that in any sport or game, unfair play damages the game and makes the atmosphere worse for all the players? Fair play is also ethics towards fellow players, your equals. And fixing a match is not about fair play, even. It's about a sporting fraud.

You also like to talk about fair play. Why did you criticize Papako and Koutrou, if you think like this? According to your thinking they have not done anything wrong in Greece association. You use ethical and fair play talk when it suits you best.

kechris wrote:Fair play sleeping in decision for penalty?

No. I think it's fair to follow the written rules of the game. That way it's same for both.

But I personally have only taken a corner kick in a situation where the other player was a young boy and we were in extra time and the shot was going wide. I just didn't want him to lose in that way, because it was a big game for him, and I knew I'd win anyway. So it's not like playing with equals.

kechris wrote:What is important rules or ethic? Because sometimes you ask ethic and sometimes you ask the rules.

You don't see the difference in game rules and common sporting rules. I don't think it's written in badminton game rules that you can't lose on purpose. It's a sporting rule, and in most countries it's subject to the sporting law.

Also these things about a penalty and fixing a game are totally different. They have nothing to do with each other. In the penalty you have a referee and a rule book. But did you ask the head referee or FISTF, if you can lose on purpose? What did they say?

If you really can't see the difference, it's really a waste of time.

You yourself argumentate through ethics and fair play when it suits your purposes, and when not, you don't think they count at all. (Fine example is criticising the methods of Koutrou and co, but accepting those same methods when Greece got a Major against the rules in the FISTF handbook.)

But I continue reading your comments on other things, like I have always done. Reading the content, disregarding who writes it. Even though I'm a racist, it seems...

von K. Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:27 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
Would you tell a child to loose on purpose?

Exactly. And what would you say to a child who is out of a tournament because another child lost on purpose to a weaker player?

kechris Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:31 am

i bored
ok you like the blackmails you like the ref who ban their problems as players and north europe persons are more fair than meditteranean.

p.s you use an example with kids because you think that kids cann't understand the behaviours. The kids understand more than you believe. If they undertand a fixxed match they can understand the reason.

i ask one more time. ethic or rules is more important? if rules why you asked ethic? if ethic why protect finnish for penalty decision?

please i cann't accept that you cann't understand the situation.

Heinz Eder Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:44 am

If you are not willed to answer questions anymore, I'm not wondering that you are bored.
I don't ask the question about children out of the reason you think. I'm pretty sure that children can understand the situation on their own. I'm only interested in it if you promote such an acting in case of a child too.
If you stomroll somebody with your car, do you feel better only because you didn't drive too fast? I don't think so. That's the difference between ethic and rule.
I hope you although would break, because your ethic is telling you not to stimroll somebody even if he/she would be guilty on his/her own?

Once again there is only black and white existing for you (this time between rule and ethic), I would try to "respect" both values, then you would be a good and fair sportsman. Anyway it doesn't change anything to discuss with you here, the only thing which would satisfy you personally, would be if von K. and me would agree on your acting and would promise to start acting the same way. It seems to be normal for you that it happens, so please don't blame anybody else anymore if he acts the same way, and you will be the victim. Why do you complain about it that so many greeks were victims of something simular too? For you it is ok to act that way, because the rules allow it (in my opinion they don't allow such a behaviour, because nor you neither your team mates respected the opponents by loosing in purpose and there for a rule is existing), for me it is not ok. According on you it seems to be the reality that the majority of players think (as always for sure) the same way, so please continue acting that way, if you like it so much to be victim one time and other times you are the one who has a benefit out of that acting. Maybe you should start to record "+" and "-" to know always if you are balanced in that statistic.

Heinz

kechris wrote:i bored
ok you like the blackmails you like the ref who ban their problems as players and north europe persons are more fair than meditteranean.

p.s you use an example with kids because you think that kids cann't understand the behaviours. The kids understand more than you believe. If they undertand a fixxed match they can understand the reason.

i ask one more time. ethic or rules is more important? if rules why you asked ethic? if ethic why protect finnish for penalty decision?

please i cann't accept that you cann't understand the situation.

von K. Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:52 pm

Kostas, you didn't answer my very simple and clear questions. Can you answer this: Why did not you answer?

Instead you ask me questions which I have already answered. That must be boring.

kechris wrote:
ok you like the blackmails you like the ref who ban their problems as players and north europe persons are more fair than meditteranean.

You seem to have real difficulties understanding what is written clearly. It must be the language barrier.

But if you can't understand written language, don't put words in my mouth.

kechris wrote:p.s you use an example with kids because you think that kids cann't understand the behaviours. The kids understand more than you believe. If they undertand a fixxed match they can understand the reason.

Nice way to bring up your kids. So it's fine that they learn in a hobby (you have said it's only a hobby), that you just have to think about yourself, no matter if the others suffer unfairly. I raise kids as a profession (another job of mine), and I know how seeing such behaviour affects them. If they see parents steal, they usually learn that it's ok to steal. If they see parents hit, they usually hit others. Even though they are told it's wrong. And you also over-estimate children's capability of understanding the complexity of the adult world. That's quite normal for any person who has not read about children's psychological development in different ages.

p.s. Heinz wrote that a rule regarding respect exists. And I searched from FISTF site:

D. Substantive Disciplinary Regulations
13. General Duties and Obligations
13-1. Obligation of ethical behaviour: The National Associations, Players and Clubs to which the present
regulations apply have to maintain a behaviour consistent with the athletic standards of fairness and morals,
in all their actions, during the sport, as well as during their financial or social actions having to do with
FISTF.

Unfortunately we can't skip the semantics, because there are also strange and alien words like "athletic standards of fairness and morals". I'm sure you find a way to say, that this does not mean the thing you did.

In the discusson about fair play - check mate... (for you probably pat).

georgy Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:45 am

von K. wrote:You seem to have real difficulties understanding what is written clearly. It must be the language barrier.

Trust me. It is certainly NOT the language barrier! lol!

Even though in his case, it makes things even worse!

In greece we use the term "Theatre of the Absurb", I think it is common all over Europe.
A: Today is going to rain!
B: Yes! The coffee is very nice!

I agree that after awhile it just gets boring, as I have said before, this "discussion" leads nowhere.

Kechris, I do not know who is laughing at me, probably you know better Shocked

since you
are the master in the art of gossiping about everything with everyone. Although I do not think
it is wise from your side to start a topic "who's laughing at whom".

I just know that I have called you twice a THIEF and you haven't even said anything.
Do you have difficulties, as Vesa said, understanding what is written clearly?

I did not reply sooner to your bullshit (no arguments as always) just "you are a liar" blah blah blah,
because I wanted to see if on Wednesday on our weekly meeting, someone would have brought back
the pachymeter that you still have. I really can't believe your nerve!

Return to me ASAP what you have STOLEN
(I even use larger fonts, so you will not have an excuse, that you skipped reading this part!)

Do you understand that it is ridiculous to speak and even critisize others about their ethics, while you do what you do.
By the way, I really laughed so hard when you hinted that Vesa's comment was racistic!
OMG!

In conclusion, I also have no interest discussing anything with you.
I just want you to return me back the pachymeter.
Trust me I will not stop asking for it, until I get it back in MINT CONDITION.
If you feel nice with yourself playing Jesus and Che Guevara, while being a thief and all the rest, do
as you wish.

PS Yes, it is you who said "There is God". Pathetic!
Although it was my mistake that I used an example in which it's just my word, against yours.
From now on, if necessary all my "examples" will be about written things.

kechris Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:17 am

i am happy when my greek "friends" in my dialogue for other reasons find the opportunity to attack me.
george we have greek forum. why you didn't write your opinion there?
i and many persons left from olympia and all critisize your behaviour.
please do a poll for fair player in greece
please write in greek forum that i stole sotmething because people wants to laugh
if i am thief why you gave to greek player a set for bases for me?

george if you have balls our dialogue in greek forum in greek language. If you looking for advantage in english language or with persons who hadn't ever meet me like Vesa i prefer the dialogue in front of greek ears who knows very well who i am and who you are.

come on

kechris Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:23 am

vesa i read your comments but i will not give the same answers for one more time because i think that both of us we will continue to insist that we have right.

Only a question because i read your opinion for kids. Are you father?

mikeburns Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:10 am

kechris wrote:i am happy when my greek "friends" in my dialogue for other reasons find the opportunity to attack me.
george we have greek forum. why you didn't write your opinion there?
i and many persons left from olympia and all critisize your behaviour.
please do a poll for fair player in greece
please write in greek forum that i stole sotmething because people wants to laugh
if i am thief why you gave to greek player a set for bases for me?

george if you have balls our dialogue in greek forum in greek language. If you looking for advantage in english language or with persons who hadn't ever meet me like Vesa i prefer the dialogue in front of greek ears who knows very well who i am and who you are.

come on

I've met you and i know what I think!

georgy Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:50 pm

kechris wrote:i am happy when my greek "friends" in my dialogue for other reasons find the opportunity to attack me.
george we have greek forum. why you didn't write your opinion there?
i and many persons left from olympia and all critisize your behaviour.

Haha, the same, as always cheap trick, to use plural, in order to look good!
Which behaviour do they critisize? That I ask for the thing that you do not return to me?
Which are the "many" who critisize?
To be honest it is very tempting to act like you, and start using other people to make my arguments
stronger!

STILL you do not reply!!! It is AMAZING.
Is the pachymeter yours?
NO! WHY DO YOU STILL HAVE IT?
If you were minimally decent, you would have given it to me, all these times that I asked
for it NOT in public, to save yourself this embarrassment.
But you still try to avoid answering. Ridiculous!
Return it!

please do a poll for fair player in greece

Please do a poll, whose voice is ALWAYS heard, crying that everyone is cheating him.
Anyway you haven't played since January.
As I remember you quit Olympia one day before the greek champions.
Once more putting yourself above the team.

You really think that if there is a poll you will be somewhere on top?
We should really have it!

please write in greek forum that i stole sotmething because people wants to laugh
if i am thief why you gave to greek player a set for bases for me?

Haha! Amazing! Once more you try to change the subject!
I did not give any set of bases to YOU!
I gave a set of bases to a friend in order to exchange them for me with another one!
Do you plan on stealing this as well? Return them both!

Can you answer once WHERE is my pachymeter? Why do you avoid answering?

george if you have balls our dialogue in greek forum in greek language. If you looking for advantage in english language or with persons who hadn't ever meet me like Vesa i prefer the dialogue in front of greek ears who knows very well who i am and who you are.

come on

At first I do not give a sh*t what you prefer! You lost this "right" with all the things you have done and do all these years.
I write wherever I want, whatever I want.
Trust me my greek is fine as well, and as I said, you inability to understand and communicate
is above any language.
I do not want to have a dialogue with you, I just want my pachymeter back, and I will not stop asking for it until you return it.

Unless you believe that the greek forum is a parallel universe in which the pachymeter is yours! I can expect anything from you!

But I agree with you in one thing. Everyone knows who you are and who I am. And as it seems, not only in Greece.

And the ones who do not "know" you, sooner or later, they will do.

RETURN my stuff!!!

PS Trust me, beware of what you wish for.

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