Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Piero,

maybe you didn´t noticed my posting with a proposal for a Masters Series. I think this could be the way to promote Subbuteo as a sport. For medias attravtive, for sponsors as well. With clear rules for all competitors (only sportswear, no alcohol...). Here and nowhere else, you can dream your dream of a sport.

But you can not forbid the selling of alcohol at FISTF tournaments like Mons, Edinburgh, Rain or somewhere

If the provisional FISTF BoD will regulate it. Go for it, but fear the critism and consequences.

In football, all leagues have their requirements in terms of organisation. In table football not really. But you can not oblige the players of division 8 (I'm speaking about football) to be as professional as in division 1. In division 8, players practice one time per week, have beers and barbecues after the training sessions and the games and they play for free.

In table football, players of low level can play in Majors but they should also be as serious as Flores or Verhagen...

If you want to sell the game to Eurosport or other TVs, you can have the Masters every year or something similar. It's just something created to give a "pro" image of the game. But let's not change the "basic" of the game.

I want to try to put an end to the discussion about the right word to use when talking about our sport/hobby/game, with the following quote from Melchett (Stephen Fry) in the comedy series Black Adder (starring Rowan Atkinson):

"As private parts to the gods are we, they play with us for their sport."

The word "sport" has many meanings, from serious olympic activity to pleasure and fun. So maybe we should stop wasting time trying to define the right word for our game. Capponi had a good example about the italian federations, also.

I understand the point about alcohol and smoke. Especially alcohol can be very negative for marketing this game to children. I know that I wouldn't bring my own kids to a competition where people are drinking much. A couple of beers in the bar of the sports hall is ok by me, but not in the hall and not so that people are drunk. Spectators are a different thing.

But regarding smoke I think that there are many big name athletes that have smoked even during competition (starting from many snooker players and high jump world champion and olympic medalist Patrik Sjöberg). In fact there are also people who have competed drunk, for example the one and only flying finn, ski jumping olympic legend Matti Nykänen. So our game is not the only one, but still I understand the problem very well and don't think that those examples are positive for the other sports. I remember being negatively surprised as a kid about Sjöbergs smoking.

Coppenolle makes a mistake, in my mind, comparing 8th division football to FISTF tournaments. I don't think that in an official division arranged or patronized by a federation it is allowed to play under the influence of alcohol. In many countries (maybe in all in the EU) you need a license (with insurance) to play for example ball sports, and that is void if you drink (and thus not allowed, because you must have a license).

National competitions of table football or club activity can be seen as hobbylike activity which Coppenolle means. And every nation or club can make their own rules about this. But competitions under FISTF are different. It's not so much to ask, that players and referees don't drink until they are out of a tournament. If they can't do that, then it might be better not to play FISTF tournaments. After the games and refereeing everyone can do what he likes. By the way, in Finland I think it's even illegal to have alcohol in a public place that has a competition or activity for children.

In short, smoking outside the hall doesn't make a difference, and drinking a beer or two in the sports hall bar or outside is no problem. Being drunk and drinking or smoking in the hall is a problem for image (not only media, which media, but parents of younger players) for younger players and also for other adult players who want a sober referee and don't like smoke. I think these are also better playing conditions, that Coppenolle said were important.

I have to add, that it is, of course, possible to have also FISTF competitions where you can have more to drink. But these should be noted before, so that the players know it. And more importantly, these competitions must be without under-aged competitors or categories.

But if we want to have something for everyone, which is a good idea usually, this would be a solution.

von K. wrote:I want to try to put an end to the discussion about the right word to use when talking about our sport/hobby/game, with the following quote from Melchett (Stephen Fry) in the comedy series Black Adder (starring Rowan Atkinson):

"As private parts to the gods are we, they play with us for their sport."

The word "sport" has many meanings, from serious olympic activity to pleasure and fun. So maybe we should stop wasting time trying to define the right word for our game. Capponi had a good example about the italian federations, also.

I understand the point about alcohol and smoke. Especially alcohol can be very negative for marketing this game to children. I know that I wouldn't bring my own kids to a competition where people are drinking much. A couple of beers in the bar of the sports hall is ok by me, but not in the hall and not so that people are drunk. Spectators are a different thing.

But regarding smoke I think that there are many big name athletes that have smoked even during competition (starting from many snooker players and high jump world champion and olympic medalist Patrik Sjöberg). In fact there are also people who have competed drunk, for example the one and only flying finn, ski jumping olympic legend Matti Nykänen. So our game is not the only one, but still I understand the problem very well and don't think that those examples are positive for the other sports. I remember being negatively surprised as a kid about Sjöbergs smoking.

Coppenolle makes a mistake, in my mind, comparing 8th division football to FISTF tournaments. I don't think that in an official division arranged or patronized by a federation it is allowed to play under the influence of alcohol. In many countries (maybe in all in the EU) you need a license (with insurance) to play for example ball sports, and that is void if you drink (and thus not allowed, because you must have a license).

National competitions of table football or club activity can be seen as hobbylike activity which Coppenolle means. And every nation or club can make their own rules about this. But competitions under FISTF are different. It's not so much to ask, that players and referees don't drink until they are out of a tournament. If they can't do that, then it might be better not to play FISTF tournaments. After the games and refereeing everyone can do what he likes. By the way, in Finland I think it's even illegal to have alcohol in a public place that has a competition or activity for children.

In short, smoking outside the hall doesn't make a difference, and drinking a beer or two in the sports hall bar or outside is no problem. Being drunk and drinking or smoking in the hall is a problem for image (not only media, which media, but parents of younger players) for younger players and also for other adult players who want a sober referee and don't like smoke. I think these are also better playing conditions, that Coppenolle said were important.

I agree.

i agree too

Sorry but football int he 8th division is played with the same rules as in division 1. It's just the "spirit" of players that is different. Players are not drunk DURING the games but the first thing they do AFTER the game is drinking beers (sometimes I see players smoking cigarettes at half-time, lol). So in table football, I agree the rules are the same for everyone but once players have stopped playing, it should not be a problem if they drink beers in or outside the hall. Just like what's happening outside the hall is not the responsability of FISTF or the organizer (I saw players being blamed in Amsterdam because they were smoking weed outside the hall). As long as it doesn't interefere with what's going on INSIDE the hall, you can't blame things.

The more time passes, the more I think table football should be run like poker. Poker has at least 10 international associations and each association is good for something. And right now I believe FISTF is going int he wrong direction (for some points) and therefore creating a 2nd world association might be a good alternative solution.

When I was younger I used to play a lot of minigolf. I put minigolf in general somewhere in the grey area between games and sports. I never participated into a competition, but sometimes I went to watch how the top-players play in competitions. I could see how much they have practised and how good they have done the preparations for the tournament. They showed great concentration and passion for the game. Their equipments were much better than the ones casual players use. They most definitely did not drink alcohol during the tournament. In my opinion, when they played with that kind of attitude, they could have said: minigolf is a sport. And what most important they got my and other spectators respect and interest for their sport. They respected their own sport and so the other people started to respect it too.

The same goes with table football.

I think we are making confusion,

we are not talking about after playing or what happens outside of the playing fields.

The problem is just during the tournament in the fields.

A very simple example: Mons and Amsterdam.

In Mons sold beer at the bar, players take it to the playing fields. This can not be allowed. It is clear that if anyone wants to drink beer is your problem (until they get drunk, then it is our problem), but I have to do in the area marked out for it.

In Amsterdam sold beer at the bar but you can not enter the pavilion. So as you can not bring food. (In Mons had dirty dishes, food scraps etc ... below ").

It is a simple matter of education. It has nothing to do with the "customs" of each country.

And it's not a question of "base." Our game and the derivation of a toy for children. Virtually all have started in the 70s and 80s. That is our "base."

Next season tolerance for certain kinds of attitudes will be 0.

A player who throws his doorman drunk in the middle of the flag after losing a match will be punished by a fine (important) and a few months without playing.

I believe that our responsibility.

Poker can never be our term of comparison.

The poker has grown by one fundamental reason: the money generated on-line.

We have no di far this capability.

Also you can not play a poker tournament if you are not of age ....

But it is clear that children do not care about anything.

Our references can be Biliardo, chess, and some things table tennis.

I'm glad that Vincent first reference to the creation of another federation.

Obviously you do not feel capable of winning the current board (provisional if, but by choice) and find the path of division.

Piero

Admin wrote:
The more time passes, the more I think table football should be run like poker. Poker has at least 10 international associations and each association is good for something. And right now I believe FISTF is going int he wrong direction (for some points) and therefore creating a 2nd world association might be a good alternative solution.

Dear Vincent,
for me you make two big mistakes.

1) Poker is a different thing from table football. It 's a game and not a sport. It 's a gambling prohibited for children. It 's a game tied only to money.

2) An ex-president that threatens to create another association just because he can no longer be president is very dangerous for the players and the movement. Please if you love this sport, watch out your words.

hönkki wrote:When I was younger I used to play a lot of minigolf. I put minigolf in general somewhere in the grey area between games and sports. I never participated into a competition, but sometimes I went to watch how the top-players play in competitions. I could see how much they have practised and how good they have done the preparations for the tournament. They showed great concentration and passion for the game. Their equipments were much better than the ones casual players use. They most definitely did not drink alcohol during the tournament. In my opinion, when they played with that kind of attitude, they could have said: minigolf is a sport. And what most important they got my and other spectators respect and interest for their sport. They respected their own sport and so the other people started to respect it too.

The same goes with table football.

1000% agree with this words!!!!

dear sports director,

when this 'important' major system is going to happen, can we find results somewhere (like last weekends results of the malta gp/ io) within the first five weeks or can we simply apply them live from eurosport text tv ??

I don't say that because I'm frustrated not to be president (even if I'm frustrated of the way the new Board came to power) but I say that because FISTF is NOT working well at the moment. Some exemples:
- newsletter and communication in general: horrible!
- results and sports management: terrible. Where are the results from Malta? How will the Milton Keynes organizer be able to use the world rankings of april?

And what for the future? Will FISTF become a sport for the elite? Yes! The goalkeeper issue is full of questions. I heard the company that will produce the goalkeeper will have to give 1200 free keepers to give to the players. Just a problem: there are +/- 1900 players in the world rankings. So what?

You will prevent alcohol in tournaments? So what will you do when players will come with their own cans of beer in their bag. How will you face unhappy organizers who sell much less drinks during the tournament? I guess the next issue for organizers will then be to raise the entry fees again...

And what after? Rumors say players will have to buy a membership card at the beginning of the season to be allowed to play FISTF events. What for? No card = no play? Where will the money go? Just to pay all the trips to the FISTF Board when they travel all around Europe?

And what is the use to pay a trip to Laurent Garnier to see if the hall is OK in Rain to organize the world cup? Will FISTF have the gutts to decide now (4 months before the WC) that Rain is not good enough?

What about the homologation of bases? How comes the Universal bases have been homologated in just a few hours while the Real Soccer bases, which are exactly the same, are waiting for he confirmation of the homologation since november!

We could also speak about the FISTF awards, the way they have been cancelled after the FISTF President told Mr Büsing he had to continue his work. And even more disgusting was the way the new FISTF Board gave a special prize to Richard Stolwijk while you definately know who had the idea to gie this special prize! Disgusting.

I will not comment how some votes have been "bought" at the latest elections because this is probably not the best place to do so.

Sorry but all this is ridiculous and instead of having a Board with bright ideas on how to make things professional, I'd better love a Board that works hard (7 days a week, not just when there are meetings) and thinks about all players on the planet and with REALISTIC ideas. The lack of respect towards Australia and Brazil has been absolutely disgusting over the last weeks and this is also a total lack of respect for the work done by the former Board.

Dear Vincent,
if all the things you say are true there will be no problems for you to win the next election in September. I accept the verdict and will return to do my work in Italy. I will not do another association just because I can not have my little toy. Shame!

You don't love table football you only love your chair!!

Now I understand why the game has 2,000 players worldwide. I thought that this attitude (from both sides) was present only in my country.

You are right, the climate of tension, division and lack of self-criticism (in addition to negligence, laziness and little desire to work) has done much damage to the football table

I prefer not to be candidate again because if I lose, I lose. And if I win, I lose anyway...

I just wait what is going to happen next to see if I will continue to organize tournaments and even continue to play tournaments.

panagios wrote:Now I understand why the game has 2,000 players worldwide. I thought that this attitude (from both sides) was present only in my country.

I respect the election. I don't understand the problem.

Just for information. In Italy we have in this moment 1187 players.

My dream is to work all unite for create a biggest movement but as you see is not easy.....

stefano,

you only answeared mr copenolle his issues. could you please answeared mine, asked 1 hour ago as well...

all the best

Please what is your name?

my name is eric verhagen, one of the players.

Dear Eric,


1) No member of the Board works for the board in a "professional" manner, and belief that you know it, so if you think one hours much to expect an answer sorry.

2) this post does not mention the malta tournaments.

3) And as a curiosity, I contacted the general manager and director of Eurosport edtorial retransmitted in Spain for our sport in the coming seasons.

4) The players at your level are the ones who will benefit most from growth nuetra importate of sport. But the attitude is through construtivas that get results.

Un abrazo.

Piero

i think this is an answer.............for me too

I have seen the numbers and I have great respect for what you do in Italy. But even this number is low for a country this big with people that love football. In order to make TFooty big, we must first stop thinking small, and then learn to work together.
This applies to all members of the community and to the board.

http://sfmn.webs.com/Results/044%20IO%20Valletta%20Malta.pdf

Malta result: In the www.mtfsa.org