Goalkeeper change

Tha changing of the goalkeepers is official according to Stefano De Francesco and Piero Capponi. In the italian forum they say this was voted in the congress. But it wasn't on the agenda as voting, it was only discussion. No one at the finnish board knows nothing about a vote about this. Therefore it can't be official.

Also this seems to be done by only taking into consideration the players in Italy or the better foreign players in their forum. They are talking about a survey (in the forum of course) and discussion at a competition in Rome!

Also De Francesco seemed to say that all members would get a goalkeeper for free. Which members these are, then? I don't know. I don't think it's possible to send a goalie to every player in the world, and it would cost a fortune. If it's only the italian players, I think there is a big problem of conflict of interests. (By the way there is already one conflict of interest, because Piero Capponi, the Total Soccer man, is in the board making decisions about homologations.)

At the Frankfurt meeting in January it was already announced to give every FISTF player one keeper for free. Laurent Garnier promised to find a sponsor for that.

But there was no vote...

yes, but a single keeper is not a bad step forward. the only problem , as is with everything, is the manner in wich the decision was taken

The need to solve the problem of keeper not a whim of anyone. Simply responds to a specific request of the countries assembled Congress in Frankfurt.

The problem, of course in any tournament FISTF had been raised by the players themselves, tired of being true "monsters" much larger in the action allowed.

Since there is no iron bearing had bothered to take into account the maximum volume (2700 mm3) and size was nonsense.

It has been decided in Frankfurt by a porter resistant plastic (type playmobil or lego).

And De Francesco Then I have studied all possibilities, talking with the most important producers and hearing from many players, Italian and foreign (Italian was the most because you know that I speak only two languages and not express myself well in English .)

In Amsterdam presented a report. The board, analyzed the same decided by the following:

- A single goalkeeper plastic.
- An external producer to the world table football
- Two types of handles (cylinder and wing).
Gift - the first goalkeeper to all players FISTF
- Make it available to everyone authorized resellers.
- Sara goalkeeper rule of law, with marchio EEC, and also may be used by children (anyone has ever said that one iron is 15 inches comparable for children 10 years ...)
- May pass without problems controls at airports.
- Will be available in September and compulsory for all in January 2011.

Greetings

Piero

sorry for my bad English.

Broken english in a forum is not a problem, but in offical newsletters of course

Thanks for the information, Piero.

Could you please say what will be the price to buy a new plastic keeper. Some players already fear they have to use two or three in a match, if the plastic is not solid enough

The price of the goalkeeper is not fixed, I believe could be alrdedor EUR 10/12

it is clear that before selling it would make all the tests to verificr the strength of it.

Thossa

think this discussion would be in the "materials" does not?

Hasta luego

Piero

Thanks for the answers Piero! I must say that I personally support the goal to have only one keeper type. Hoewever, I have couple of issues that I would like you to consider/comment:

The main issue is the current problem where all the "cheap" team packs (Soccer3D, Zeugo, Hasbro etc.) come with a Subbuteo keeper. Thus, a player starting to play probably buys a team set and have a Subbuteo keeper. After that he/she plays a while until he/she realises that the Table Football is played with a totally different keeper type (those current "monsters"). It would be great if the new keeper type would be cheap enough so that it could be included in the starter packs instead of the old Subbuteo keeper. This would give the new players the real keepers from the beginning. However, I do not know if this is economically possible thing to do. Just one idea.

pierocapponi wrote:
- An external producer to the world table football

Why not to just fix the model and material and allow anyone to produce the keeper? This would allow true price competition between producers and would (probably) make the final price lower.

pierocapponi wrote:
Gift - the first goalkeeper to all players FISTF

How do you define a FISTF player? A player who has participated in FISTF competitions during the last two years? What about newcomers who have just started their couriers in the national level. For instance, in Finland we have tens of players who have not participated in FISTF tournaments.

pierocapponi wrote:
- Will be available in September and compulsory for all in January 2011.

Did you consider a larger transition period? Maybe the whole season 2010-2011 with the new keeper and the old ones in parallel and the new one as compulsory at the beginning of the season 2011-2012.

Hello,

Personally I think Subbuteo, Zeug, Soccer 3D are essentially toys.

We speak of material "professional" and I think it's just that there was some discrepancy in the materials. Economically it is impossible to insert a product of a certain quality in boxes that costs 10/15 euros.

We must not allow this "freedom" of production because it's just the freedom of production (and lack of control) which has led to the monsters.

Every weekend we have 2 / 3 tournaments in the world and it is physically impossible for the National and International Federations to control everything. The control of what you should do the referees / players and we want to make your job easier. Only one porter same for everyone.

Take this opportunity to tell you that you can not paint (some people paint it to make it 1,000 times more fat, or immerse you in the queue, or they put a meter of tape around the handle, etc. .. etc. ..)

The initial idea was to give a goalie for each player listed on the national federation. I wonder, as a curiosity, why players do not play tournaments FISTF Finns.

Some wanted to change him in September 2010. We preferred to add a time of distribution and adaptation of four months more. We believe that is enough.

I also remember, on the risk of breaking the doorkeepers to stop such "sweep" is not allowed in our regulations.

A hug.

Piero

pierocapponi wrote:I wonder, as a curiosity, why players do not play tournaments FISTF Finns.

Sorry to ask, but can you rephrase this sentence? I'm not 100% sure did I understood it right.

Kaitsu wrote:

pierocapponi wrote:I wonder, as a curiosity, why players do not play tournaments FISTF Finns.

Sorry to ask, but can you rephrase this sentence? I'm not 100% sure did I understood it right.

Kaitsu, I understood it perfectly (I hope): Why don't all Finnish players participate in FISTF tournaments.

Yes, I understand that it is not economically feasible if the keeper costs 10 euro. It just came to my mind that if the new keeper is plastic, it might be in the limits of feasibility to make it so cheap that it could be included in the starter sets.

I know that from the "professional player" point of view the Zeugo, Soccer3D etc. are like toys. When a new player (not living in Italy) tries to wonder what should be the first package of Table Football he should by to test the game, he presumably prefers a cheap option (2 team, goals and a pitch with 70 euros) instead of one team without a keeper costing 70 euros.

Why all Finnish players do not play FISTF tournaments? We have only one international tournament per year in Finland. In addition we have a national circuit where we have about 10 tournaments per year. Thus, the national circuit is more interesting for some players. Also, some players are not interested to play in tournament, but prefer own local leagues. Also from Finland is quite long distance to the closest international tournaments abroad.

I agree on the topic of the goalkeeper, unfortunately the old board needed too much time to solve that problem. Of course something like that is needed, because the situation was very bad already.
I only would be interested, how the new board will control things. Of course it is a good step to send keepers to all associations, but we had the problem now to control things, why should it be better after 1st of january.
Player played with faked keepers, why should they play now with the right keepers? What would you do, if the referees don't control those things like they didn't do it in the past?
When I talked to different producers in the past, I always got the answer that they don't care if there is only 1 keeper, because they keep on selling the metal keepers to private people, but what is going to happen when those private people start playing in a club?
What I want to point out is that I don't think after 1st of january 2011 all players will play with this keeper and I think the hardest part of the job will start on 2nd of january when the FISTF Board needs many people who will control the keeper issue. If that won't happen, you are going to lose that "fight" the same way the old board did.

Good luck

Heinz

pierocapponi wrote:Hello,

Personally I think Subbuteo, Zeug, Soccer 3D are essentially toys.

We speak of material "professional" and I think it's just that there was some discrepancy in the materials. Economically it is impossible to insert a product of a certain quality in boxes that costs 10/15 euros.

We must not allow this "freedom" of production because it's just the freedom of production (and lack of control) which has led to the monsters.

Every weekend we have 2 / 3 tournaments in the world and it is physically impossible for the National and International Federations to control everything. The control of what you should do the referees / players and we want to make your job easier. Only one porter same for everyone.

Take this opportunity to tell you that you can not paint (some people paint it to make it 1,000 times more fat, or immerse you in the queue, or they put a meter of tape around the handle, etc. .. etc. ..)

The initial idea was to give a goalie for each player listed on the national federation. I wonder, as a curiosity, why players do not play tournaments FISTF Finns.

Some wanted to change him in September 2010. We preferred to add a time of distribution and adaptation of four months more. We believe that is enough.

I also remember, on the risk of breaking the doorkeepers to stop such "sweep" is not allowed in our regulations.

A hug.

Piero

So, what do you propose?
I understand the limitations, the difficulties etc, as do all other players. What is your solution?

It's possible.

But it will be difficult, there being a single model of porter, with an official hologram, the same for everyone, the players are fooled by the rosters.

If i would know the best solution for that, the old board would solve the problem earlier.
I think that 1st of january is too close to make that change, for an example we have young players in our club, they needed other keepers now, so they had to buy metal keepers, of course it is nice that they will get 1 new keeper, but in the end they spent the money now for keepers, they can't use in 7 months anymore.
I think it would be better to have an agreement with the distributors of the metal keeper, that they won't sell those keepers in a first step for a year and then at the WC 2011 the change should be final. I would also propose for the big events like WC, EC and Major that FISTF and/or organizer has to provide keepers for the tournament. This could be a start to control things at least at the biggest events.
How to control things at Grand Prixs and all other tournaments will be a challenge which has to be solved by the new board.

Heinz

LLcoolJ wrote:So, what do you propose?
I understand the limitations, the difficulties etc, as do all other players. What is your solution?

I dare say that this keeper issue should also be extended to bases and figures as well. I say this because it is even harder to identify cheating in the weight and height of the figure+base.

The new board should consider this

LLcoolJ wrote:I dare say that this keeper issue should also be extended to bases and figures as well. I say this because it is even harder to identify cheating in the weight and height of the figure+base.

The new board should consider this

No way! It would take all the fun discussing about the bases and their superiority against each other. Now it is fun to see how there are "ExtremeWorks players" and "Profibase players", and how changing bases affects on your performance. In my opinion the goalkeeper issue is much more troubling than the bases.

I have a different view on that.
The new board wants to go in the direction of a sport, so we should be able to have sport equipment and sport equipment for an example shouldn't mean to have too much regulations, because I know people who spend a lot of time in development of better equipment, the only problem are the actual rules.
In my opinion there should be more space for testing different materials and forms, which isn't possible at the moment because of rules according the weight, the hight and the form of the different parts (base and figures).
In every sport it is an important factor to use the best equipment, your way would lead to one type of bases for all players, that isn't the right step in my opinion.

Heinz

LLcoolJ wrote:I dare say that this keeper issue should also be extended to bases and figures as well. I say this because it is even harder to identify cheating in the weight and height of the figure+base.

The new board should consider this

It has been decided in Frankfurt by a porter resistant plastic (type playmobil or lego).

well, apart from the question whether there had been a decision in Frankfurt or not... those who say, they decided to introduce a keeper like this definitely ignored everything we know about plastic.
The harder it is (lego / playmobil) the easier it will break.

Have you ever tried to bend a lego piece? It will break into pieces...
And have you ever tried to break a piece of rubber? You'll fail miserably.
And somewhere in between these two extremes 'the external producer' has to find the right material for the new goalkeeper. To find it for the figure won't be much of a problem, but for the rod it's simply IMPOSSIBLE

I hate the idea of playing tournaments with either a wabbly goalkeeper which will be bent by the power of the shot or an easy-to-break-keeper which had been replaced after each contact with a goalpost...

For me the metal rod is absolutely essential !!!

So, why not creating a unified plastic figure which could be mounted onto a metal rod?
The answer is quite simple...
Because a metal figure is more solid and more value-for-money, so everyone would ask for that within short time...
And nothing's left to change for the new BoD anymore...
Poor guys, they are

The only thing which needs to be done in this issue is to ask the referees to control the keepers. If a player uses an illegal one and he denies to change, just diqualify him from the tournament...
What we need to control the different types is not more than a simple pdf containing shapes with measures and pictures for comparison.

Plastic keepers for a 'professional' 'sport' ???

Hi marcus, you want players to control the keepers who play maybe with an illegal goalkeeper too? We see how that works.

Marcus I disagree.

First, to break a piece of lego ..... need an effort, probably with the same effort to break an iron.

I doubt you can easily break a plastic mixed with glass fiber for example.

An iron bar CAN NOT BE USED BY CHILDREN.

An iron bar can not have the logo EEC.

An iron bar can not fly in a baggage.

Many sports federations have made many important changes in this regard (for example gives you remove the aluminum baseball to return to the wood.)

Do not forget you're talking with industry professionals.

A hug.

Piero

(i like this discussion...)

It doesn't work, because nobody really cares and many players don't want to cause any trouble on a tournament...
Just imagine an 'unknown' player asks to control a keeper from a 'prominent' player?
What will happen?
He'll either be ignored or (depending on the size of a tournament) 100 players will show their impatience by calling to start the next round and putting the pressure onto this player!
The pressure has to be on the player who uses the illegal material.
THIS has to changed...
But this is no change in the rules, this is a change in general behaviour...


and to be honest: to change nothing is FAR better than plastic keepers...!!