Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

The first part has nothing to do.
What counts is the result final.


If the final result s than 5 goal difference (5-0, 6-1, 7-2, 17-5).

5-0 reflects a difference in effects of goals in the group.

In Bishop two years ago a kid .... lost 15-0 and 20-0

the first "feneomeno" got 20 and the second ntentò getting back "only" 15 great players ..... that .....

that educational and fun ...

In our club we have 20 members. This year we have 4 newcomers. The newcomers wanted to play in league. But they haven't any chance for a good result against the other players.
So i took the decision all the players to use the minimum number of figures (6+1) against the newcomers. So these games were a good trainining for all players and the newcomers didn't loose with high scores.
Propably this idea is not good for international tournaments but you must protect the weak players and the game from high scores. And the solution for fake scores (5-0) are completely wrong!!!
If you cann't find solutions for so simple situations then you are not the best persons for BoD.

p.s All the newcomers were the 4 members of our 3rd team in sattelite of Athens. They play semifinal between 12 teams. Maybe my idea for this kind of training was good...

You are right, Galeazzi, De Francesco, Toni and some more that many years ago put this rule in Italy are not good managers.....

I met for first time many years ago mr Galeazzi and mr DeFrancesco.
I don't know if they are good or very good managers. I respect them because they have a lot of experience.
But i don't know why they select a rule with a maximum high score. I want to hear their opinion.

Now i want to ask your opinion for your decision of 5-0. If you only follow the old proposals of Gianluca and Stefano i haven't problem. Some times and the best managers make wrongs. Don't follow them with close eyes.

Do you know if i am good manager? you believe that only the famous italian players are good managers. Do you know my palmare? Please ask before you sarcasm me. There are in every country good managers. Gianluca and Stefano are not the only people who have ideas in this world.

You promised before elections new ideas. I know your Greek partner in BoD and he hasn't no ideas.
I read your circulars. You promised new forum in 12 april and now 42 days later we still waiting your forum. You can't find a simple solution for the goalkeepers. You haven't a full clear proposal for europa cups.

And i think that you prepare something special unfair for the elections. Because your greek partner has good ideas in this point.

There is a unique system in the world tod like to evaluate a job. results.

The rule of 5-0 (in addition to many other start-ups at multiple sites, such as mandatory elimindaso Tournament) works very well and has avoided many problems.

For other arguments that try, I think you're confusing. I work in marketing, I presented a program and I'm respecting millimeter.

Do not know your curiculum, and I doubt you know mine.

So please before you speak of disloyalty have a little respect.

Thank you.

pierocapponi wrote:So please before you speak of disloyalty have a little respect.Thank you.

I don't have anything against you Piero, but you were the first who used sarcasm agains kechris... He just reacted.

Regarding the issue discussed here, a solution that is NEVER used in any sport can't be right. Certainly there is a problem when a new comer is badly beaten by an expert, but to manipulate the score is a bit unsophisticated.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the actual intention of the rule 5-0 is NOT to protect the weak players from being beaten, it is there just to make sure that a goal difference larger that five goals will not decide a group!!!

So, nothing to do with the "protection" of the weak, it is there to protect the winners of a group from a possible set-up by their opponents.

So, first you have to find another better way to really protect the weak, second you have to find another better way to avoid set-up matches.

In baseball there is clearly smaller than in the confined youth soccer match results between children ... I can make you very many examples in sports great.

The rules exist to prevent a person with little experience, not ready for his club, his federation and his friends playing a major tournament, is the sacrificial victim of two people much more prepared in our game.

Nothing more.

by the way, if you read the discussion kecris discover that he had already said before that somo one incapable.

Was my sarcasm if offensive I apologize. This is not my language and it shows

I think that most people here are missing the point, and also understanding the other sides' argument incorrectly.

Martin Hodds wrote:A v B = 1-1
B v C = 22-0
A v C = 23-0

Does this prove player A is better than B ? Not really.
Will player C play another tournament ? Probably not.

I agree the 5-0 limit is too low though. Maybe 9-0 so the score doesn't reach double figures.

Spot on, Martin! This is the point. 5-0 is too little, but we need a limit to avoid that.

This year we had a tournament in Finland where in my group there was T. Sihvola (Zinga) and 2 newcomers. Me and Zinga played the last game. We both won 13-0 the first games. I could've won double that, but at 7-0 after seven minutes I saw that this sympatic and nice guy, was really having a hard time, and didn't enjoy playing one bit! I wasn't enjoying it either, and neither were Zinga and the fourth player. Before the second games we made a deal with Zinga that we can both score 6 in the second matches and decide the group in our game.

Even though we didn't beat them as badly as we could have, they are still frightened to come to the competitions and like more playing their own league in their home city. Their city didn't even get a team to compete for the finnish championships because of the first games. I know that if I would be a beginner and lost always 20-0 I would quit the game or stop going to the competitions.

I'm not prepared to risk any more players in our small game/sport for having to beat the s..t out of them, even though I don't want to.

Thossa wrote:I know Eric Verhagen. There are not much top-players like him, taking so much time for weaker and younger players to practise in breaks, after or before tournaments. He gives a lot valuable assistance, even when he plays against them, too.

Eric Verhagen is an exception. Georgy told me that he sometimes wants to finish second in the group just to mix things a bit. He's a Player, like his nickname suggests.

But for example if winning the group means facing Haider nad finishing second means Bertelli, then do you really think anyone (except maybe Verhagen) would give advice and teach a newcomer while playing? I think instead of giving advice, he would be giving a beating.

When I played waterpolo there were guys who wanted to play full even in training against beginners. I always made them work as hard as on their level was possible. If I had played with full power, then they would never see the ball or learn to do anything. When there were other teams that we could beat 25-1, I never understood the fun part in scoring in those games. I never saw the point in playing in full even in the league against such teams. I wanted them to want to keep playing and learn from the game.

If I'd play tennis against Roger Federer, it would be useless if he'd play for full. But with his skill he could make me play just on or over the upper limit of my level. So I would learn a lot, but still lose and see that there is a long long long way to the top.

Thossa wrote:I say all the time to beginners who participate new in international tournaments. You are here to learn. Learn from the best and it is normal in real soccer when Bayern Munich beats Titikaka Idaho 15-0.

Why do you think many small island nations in Oceania don't participate in WC qualifiers? Because when Australia won 35-0 against Samoa (not sure if it was Samoa), they understood that it's ridiculous to even play the sport for anything other than fun with friends. Football is in decline in most of the island nations in Oceania.

And does Titikaka Idaho play in the same competition as Bayern? In a friendly everyone knows to expect a beating, but a real competition with very uneven teams that is decided by goal difference, and has ridiculous scores, is ridiculous.

drastis wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but the actual intention of the rule 5-0 is NOT to protect the weak players from being beaten, it is there just to make sure that a goal difference larger that five goals will not decide a group!!!

I think you really want to see it only this way. I see it in two ways. Because scoring 15 doesn't help to win the group, it automatically protects the weaker players at least in games against decent opposition.

It's a way of seeing things. In italian football you don't see results like 8-0 almost ever, like you do in the English league. It works two ways. You don't humiliate your fellow professionals for nothing and you save some energy at the same time. In Italy the goal diference doesn't decide, in England it does. In Italy you know that a win is what you are playing for. In England you never know if in the end of the season you lose with one less goal in 38 matches. Does this really tell which of the teams is better, especially as we know that many goals during a season can come from refereeing errors.

So in every game you have to try to score as much as possible even if the other team has 3 players sent off. Mercy is humane, humiliating is not. And some systems allow us to be mercyful, and even teach the weaker players as we play.

drastis wrote:So, nothing to do with the "protection" of the weak, it is there to protect the winners of a group from a possible set-up by their opponents.

It's very far from my world. I've never been in a competition where a result is fixed to decide the group. Maybe it's heppening somewhere, but this is something that has to be dealt with other tools.

The point is that the limit takes of the pressure fro the better players to humiliate beginners. When the goals are not deciding, you can take your foot of the gas at some point. The beginners still know exactly how big the skill difference is. And the score is what it is. The limit should only apply to the group table, not the results.

The level of 5 goals is too little, though, because even good players can lose with five, and that sort of achievement should count. But over 10 goals difference in a match with good players is very rare, so maybe 9 could be a good limit.

von K. wrote:The level of 5 goals is too little, though, because even good players can lose with five, and that sort of achievement should count. But over 10 goals difference in a match with good players is very rare, so maybe 9 could be a good limit.

This. I fully support the rule for limiting the results for protecting newcomers. However, the 5-0 limit is far too low. In my opinion 8-0 would be much better.

And, I can give you an example where last Saturday the 5-0 rule could have gone very easily very wrong. We had a group of four players: Teemu (Me), Juho, Wille, and Jarkko. The first games:
Teemu 3-1 Juho
Wille 4-0 Jarkko
Teemu 4-0 Jarkko
Wille 1-1 Juho.

So, in the last game if I beat Wille and Juho beats Jarkko, Juho and Wille will decide second of the group on the basis of the goal difference. Well, one minute to play and the results are:
Teemu 6-0 Wille (will be reduced to 5-0)
Juho 2-0 Jarkko.

Juho is going through with goal difference 4-4 and Wille is going to be the third with 5-6. Well, that was the final results and Juho went through. But in the other reality this could have happened:
Jarkko scores in the final minute and Wille goes through on made goals because the 5-0 rule did cut one goal away from his goals against. So the player going through would have been the only player in the group to whom the 5-0 rule would have been used!! Wille is really not a newcomer who need the help of the rule.

And the presented example was from the real life. I did not make it up...

I haven't red everything what is written here, but can easily imagine situations where the 5-0 rule works badly.

situation 1

A - B 1-1
A - C 5-0
B - C 15-0

I think B is possibly clearly better than A. A might got the draw against B with luck and the skilldifference between A and B comes out in the games against C. Still A ja B have to have shoot-out.


situation 2

A - B 1-1
A - C 2-8
B - C 0-15

A gives everything against better player C and succeed to even score 2 goals. B gives a s**t against C. Still A and B have to have shoot-out.

Friends, the problem is not 8-0 or 5-0.

the problem is ... the third match. Many players of similar level in the group stage tied for scoring goals, then focus on the third group.

This rule has solved this problem, ties in group stage have decreased significantly. Nobody wants to get the shots to decide.

Coincidences? two coincidences are a welcome, 'said the director of the newspaper where I worked ....

Your actions demonstrate once more that the problem exists. And it is the responsibility of the federations to find solutions.

Some federations (such as Italian, Spanish and Portuguese) have been decided by 5-0.

Indeed, in Spain in the last year we have gone from 55-175 players (as of this morning). We reach 200 before the end of the season.

The formula? work, sensitivity and product in stores. The third without the first two does not help.

Wouldn´t it be a masterstroke to launch your Total Soccer product in Germany this year, Piero?

If you want to talk about this in another discussion not?.

We are seeking an agreement with Giochi Preziosi, (which is our distributor in Italy, Greece and Portugal) but as I have yet to explain this agreement.

Pierro maybe you are a good in marketing but i think that i am good organiser in table soccer and i can find easy and fast solutions in problems.
Today morning i spent few time during driving and i find all the problems of your idea for 5-0.
So we have a group of 3 players. The A player win the B 6-1 and B win the C 5-O. In the last game the C win A 7-2. With the classic system A is first and C second. With your system all the players have the same goals and they must play penalties!!!!
This is only a simple example. I can give thousands examples especially in groups of 4. In many occasions is possible on the last game one player needs a win with more than six goal. So with your system this player cann't ever qualify to the next round !!!????.....

Yes i know that i do hard critical. Because i want hard critical for my proposals. BECAUSE I LOVE TABLE SOCCER MORE THAN YOUR CHAIRS. I cann't believe that your proposals are so bad. You didn't spend 5 minutes before you propose something.
One more example. You (fistf BoD) took the decision no qualify in europa cups by world ranking. And the same time you decide 3 players per country for World Cup by world ranking. BLACK and WHITE.
Do you want one more? You decide 5-0 maximum high score only in individual and no limit in scores in team events!!! Is it logical?

My teamates visited Madrid in December and they gave me good comments for you. I believe them. But this is not enough for stopping my critical for your decisions as BoD member. In America use a phrase: NOBODY IS OVER THE GAME. I love this.

You keep saying that I am taken deciiones wrong.

I think you're confusing.

I do not make sports decisions.

Indeed, the rule is not a rule 5-0 sport is a rule of marketing. Ls team competitions have nothing to do in that situation because football table is no longer an individual sport.

It was introduced in the Handbook this year under my petcion.

I keep asking, you know how many players have stopped playing situations how are you on?

I advise you to seek explanations from the Italian Federation that this rule has been implementing for several years. It is clear that the applications of the rule in Italy has not created any problems. Of course the example that you do not have occurred in any tournament in which we organize in Italy and Spain each week.

one last comment, maybe you forget that I am the president of the Spanish Federation.

That's wonderful that you continue to criticize, it's your right, I also hope to see you soon on a board to carry out your proposals. (And it's not sarcasm)

pierocapponi wrote:That's wonderful that you continue to criticize, it's your right, I also hope to see you soon on a board to carry out your proposals. (And it's not sarcasm)

as it has to been approved by his national president, i doubt this will ever happen

but honestly, do you really think that players stopped because they received more goals then 5? perhaps it is the case in spain and italy, but in austria only "old" players stopped playing, because they had enough it not, not enought time etc. etc.... young players in our club don't care if they lose by 20 goals or 10, we often tell them just before the match "listen up kid, you will receive more then 20 goals, but that's normal, it's just to show you where you are at the moment, and in a month, we will play again and you can see your improvement" - and they get the message and are eager to train and improve

so i think it's not a global problem, but a specific one for some countries, and noone should blame the whole existing table soocer world with all their "old" players for that and cut results...

maxischn wrote:

pierocapponi wrote:That's wonderful that you continue to criticize, it's your right, I also hope to see you soon on a board to carry out your proposals. (And it's not sarcasm)

as it has to been approved by his national president, i doubt this will ever happen

This was a good comment Mark.

Propably Pierro never will see me in BoD because the persons who vote for this positions talking under the table. I want to help table soccer but i cann't accept support under "special" conditions.

Before ten years in Greece i proposed to rent a hall for all the year. Because 99% of Greek players lived in Athens and all clubs was in Athens. Many people laugh with me because then we were only 50 active players. I told them that all the players who stopped before many years in age of 20 years old will restart. They continue laughing. I said also that we need 3 categories. For the top class players for the medium players and for the newcomers. They continue laughing because they thought that all the players wanted to play with the top class players.

Three years ago i began my effort with new federation with 3 categories. We had 100% more newcomers. They are happy because enjoy the game without loosing 10-0. They played in C category. Many good players prefer to play in b division than A, because they prefer to play for the first place.
Now the half of greek clubs follow my proposal for sport hall and now we have 5 !!! halls. Last year we had 150 ACTIVE PLAYERS. 300% over! But last year Vincent did the mistake to support the wrong person. He stopped divisions and unfortunately last week only 42 players played in Greek league. Again the same numbers as 3 years before. Now all of us we make efforts for more than 100 players in Acropolis.
The power of table soccer is the newcomers. The top class player will continue playing in every condition. But the newcomers NO.
We must bet all our hopes in table soccer lovers and no in proffecional players. Because is more possible a lover to become good and fair player than a proffesional to become fair and real lover of the game.
My teamates will travel to Bologna. Three members of the first team will upsent. But the rest players will travel, no because they believe in success but because they love the game. They spend more than 300e (airtickets, rent a car, and hotel) and maybe will play 2 games in individual and 2 in team event. I know many famous top class players who select tournaments for the possibility of success.

If you want better future you must take decisions in this direction. No 5 iitalian players in W.C and only 2 from Scotland for example. If 5 players by Scotland take part in individual then Scotland will take part and in team event. So simple.
If the same number of clubs of all federations will take part in Europa cups then all the federations will organise better leagues. If play 9 italian teams then the Europa cups will die in three years.
If you continue the system in tournaments with group of 3 and no qualifications by world ranking then the international tournaments will die. They will be national tournaments with local players.

I prefer now to stop. I can write for days but this is not good in forum.

Kostas,

I agree with you word for word.

When we explain you really know that we are doing in Spain (all together).

Good luck in Spain if you have a programm like this.

P.S i hope at next elections to give your vote to people who can see the future with open eyes.
No to people who have only dreams for the future but they don't know how the dreams will be reality.

We have very clear what we must do to achieve our dreams in soccer table, we have the formula also can be applied anywhere:

work product in stores and sensitivity

Sorry, but I don't think so.

The "5-0" comes from my region, where I've introduced this rule for another problem.
When I started playing in local agonistic league of Milano (it was 1980), the number of players was 150/200 and the tournaments were performed with Knockout sistem. Near Milano there were 36 Subbuteo clubs, but every year many people stop playing and less start, till 1990, when the Clubs in my region were less than ten.
So. when in 1988 I become Regional President I've asked myself why about the decrease of players.

One of the reasons was the ranking, that allowed to every player to take part of every tournaments.

It appen that new player could play with 2 or 3 old players like a "living dartboard" and at the end of the tournament his ass was so broken to convince him to stop playing agonistic league.

So, it's not a sport problem, but a marketing strategy to preserve the number of players.

The same when with my best friend Galeazzi we have founded the Italian Federation with only 8 clubs in 1995.

With International Ranking I think it's not a problem, because you accept the result of the game based on the level of the tournament.

I repeat: the ratio of the rule is not sport. Our sport is not soccer!!!!

Stefano Buzzi wrote:
I repeat: the ratio of the rule is not sport. Our sport is not soccer!!!!

Mr Buzzi i read all your posts letter to letter.
I like more of your opinions and i was suprised for the story for the internet in Denmark.
I have the same opinion with you that table soccer is not soccer. I support that the game who is closer to table soccer is chess. Because is a game for one no for teams and the draw is very usual only in chess, no in other games.

But the big difference is that table soccer players feel as footballer (messi) and coach (murinio) together.
We must find more points to go closer at real soccer because the people who start playing subbuteo doing this because love soccer.

We need simple and clear rules.
We need tournaments for all.
We need cheap equipment for all in every corner of world.
We need plan no abramovic and hountini.
We need people who really love the game.

Do you see any REALISTIC plan before last elections? Do you see after elections?
Do you see any programm the last years? The last person who create a good plan was mr Pere before many many years.
Nobody ask why slow die every year the table soccer in France in Denmark in Great Britain in Portugal the last years.
Why we have problems every year in Greece?
All wants to save subbuteo but none say what is the problem?
I think that the only problem is the persons who took decisions.
WE ARE RESPONSIBLE BECAUSE WE SELECT WRONG PERSONS WITH WRONG IDEAS.

I have to mention that in the Major of Bologna there was a 6-0 hammering in the QF of the team competition. It was a game between some of the best players in the world, Carlos Flores beating Stefano De Francesco.

What if it was a group game? Are you really still saying that 5-0 is enough? Would it be fair to Flores after a magnificent performance like that?

I still think the idea of the rule in other competitions than Majors and World Cup is ok, but the limit clearly isn't high enough.

The 6-0 of Carlos vs Stefano was a result in a team tournament match

Nevertheless, don´t forget: Kegenbein hammered in 2008 in the World Cup final of U15 in Vienna Timmers 8-1 away.

Will you reduce it to a 5-0 if it would happen again

Is Kegenbein now responsible for Timmers disappearance in international tournaments?

Sorry folks, but the rule should never exist in rationality.

Stop the offical manipulations !!!

Thossa wrote:The 6-0 of Carlos vs Stefano was a result in a team tournament match

Yes, but it could have been individual as well.

Thossa, you are missing the point a little with Kegenbein-Timmers example. Good players don't quit because of hammering. And if they do, there is nothing to do about it. It's all about beginners and the future players which in some countries are not very many.

The idea of the rule is to manipulate the games in which the players are in totally different class. Like a 13 year old schoolboy who has played tennis under a year against the top players of the world. Would it be good to decide if Federer or Nadal is better with the results against this kid?

6-0 or 8-1 can happen between very good players, but over ten is very rare. Against beginners it can be 25-0 and neither player enjoys the game.

In the biggest tournaments (Majors and WC) it's not a problem. Everyone knows the level is high. But for example in the Helsinki Open we need and want to have even the beginners participating, but the risk is high, especially with teenagers and their psyche, that they don't participate any more.

In bigger countries this is not the same, because of more players at every level and more tournaments at every level.

And for the smaller countries every single player is important, even though all of them are not aiming to be proessionals or the best. Also it's wrong to think that all players are able to take the beating and continue with the game. Not all the players are as competitive minded as others when they begin the game. When I was a teenager I know that I would have quit a new hobby instantly if I didn't enjoy it.

And a 25-0 is nothing to enjoy. I know, because in another sport my team did that, and I've spoken to the opposition afterwards. Then again when we were outclassed 20-1 in the European Cup by a Catalan team who were the reigning European Champions, it was different, because we were not beginners.

I would suggest that in GPs and lower level tournaments it's up to the organizer to decide whether use the rule or not. The organizers know best the level and even psyche of the beginners, because they usually are from nearby areas. But even with this 5-0 is too low (as Flores proved). It has to be about 10-0.

If a big sport like golf can have a handicap system, why can't a little game like ours have something towards the beginners.