Capponi's illegal figures

One of the good stories of week-end was reported by Titi Giaux this morning. In a game between Perugia and Rochefort TS, the referees were Madrid and Guerrero told David Van den Houte he had to change team because his set of bases & figures was illegal (Van den Houte was using Colpani bases). The belgian player became angry and Piero Capponi had an agressive attitude towards him. Van den Houte left the game because he refused to change team (and Rochefort had to play with 3 players)... The end of the story came later in the week-end when Piero Capponi was told his team was illegal (his referee was Alan Collins!!!) and Capponi replied "I'm a sponsor so I am free to use whatever team I want". Looks like some discussions came up later during the week-end. Capponi wasn't there anymore to present the trophies. Looks like it was another ridiculous week-end for FISTF. What a shame...

Another rumor: Stefano De Francesco resigned at the end of the tournament.

On the belgian forum, a well-known player summarized his week-end "it was one of the worst "big tournaments" I have ever played"...
- good hall & pitches but...
- no food or drinks in the hall
- very slow organisation & ni results posted in the hall
- no scoreboards
- a system of a group stage of 12 in the europa league (with the game between Napoli and Bologna being played just before the last row!!!!!)

Well, a very professional organisation!

It's of course good fun for us comedy-enthusiasts. But in reality it looks like FISTF is starting to get buried for real. If those things are true, and SdF has also resigned, it's hard to see any possibility for anyone to get enough support to make things work again.

It's another topic, but it would be nice to know what possibilities people see for the future of FISTF and especially the BoD of FISTF.

von K. wrote:It's of course good fun for us comedy-enthusiasts. But in reality it looks like FISTF is starting to get buried for real. If those things are true, and SdF has also resigned, it's hard to see any possibility for anyone to get enough support to make things work again.

It's another topic, but it would be nice to know what possibilities people see for the future of FISTF and especially the BoD of FISTF.

Well, as a first just emotional comment I would suggest: those who smashed the car should be obliged to repair it ....

Capponi resigned!
http://www.fistf.info/?q=node/308

Admin wrote:Capponi resigned!
http://www.fistf.info/?q=node/308

I open a new thread at "OTHER"

Ι am waiting when table soccer understand that the future of table soccer belong to REAL AUTHENTIC subbuteo lovers and no to FISTF's chair lovers.

Where was Garnier the last years?
Capponi resigned again.
Stefano works alone but also he takes decisions alone...
Horta works but is an unofficial member.
No comments by me for Koutroumanos.

LOOK MY POSTS BEFORE 2, 3, 4, 5 YEARS.
I WAS NOT MENTALIST BUT I PERSON WHO USED HIS MIND (NO EYES) TO SEE THE FUTURE.
I USE MY EYES FOR ΜΥ ΤΕARS FOR THE SITUATION IN TABLE SOCCER.

Could you explain to us why Luis is unofficial member?
I can't see any reason why he isn't an official according on statutes.
Our statutes allow it that people can be appointed by the president if an elected member resigns during the periode and he can officially overtake the job.

Do we start again a discussion about our statutes? Please read carefully this time, before you start a discussion without an end, which we already had 2 times.

About the rest i have to commit that you are a very wise man Kostas (we have to say thank you for your premises), but one more time you mix up things.
I don't think that the people before loved their chair, but I wish you good luck to find new people who want to sit on that ejection seat.
Maybe you are right that the one or other actually doesn't want to leave his seat, but why do you generalize?

Even if you don't want to hear, the so called "Lovers of Tablesoccer" are particullary responsible for it that there won't be many people left who want to take such a seat.
Maybe you can answer me the following questions.

How can an association exist without people taking responsibility for the association?
Do you prefer it that the association only exists with people in the board who are on the chair that the association can continue existing?

Undependent who will be the next (if there will be somebody voluntary), if he is not doing what you want, he is a chair-lover after the first months too and needs to be replaced in your opinion.

On the other side you are sitting one more time on your gallery and only blame those who are on the chair, you think it is so desirable to get on. Maybe I have to remember you what you wrote about some people of the board when they were elected, so maybe your view into the future isn't 100% sharp.
I'm curious to read your proposals who should sit on an ejection seat where you and some others think to have the button in their hand to let the rocket start with the FISTF Board member on it.

You can think whatever you want about the people, but most of them wanted to bring the association forward and they had their idea about it, if you like the idea or not, is up to you.

Come down from your gallery and make things better instead of generalizing people who want to try their best. Maybe you can explain me what is so important on a FISTF job that somebody wants to stick on any chair?
I asked several times but I never got an answer from you like on several other questions. It seems to me that you don't have an answer for those questions.

again you seem to run out of arguments.

We are waiting for a deliverer, and you told us that you are the one, because you can see into the future. What do we have to do that we are lead by you? Do we have to beg for your mercy to come down to us?

I'm already now curious to read your comments in the next months till the elections in Mons.

kechris wrote:Ι am waiting when table soccer understand that the future of table soccer belong to REAL AUTHENTIC subbuteo lovers and no to FISTF's chair lovers.

Where was Garnier the last years?
Capponi resigned again.
Stefano works alone but also he takes decisions alone...
Horta works but is an unofficial member.
No comments by me for Koutroumanos.

LOOK MY POSTS BEFORE 2, 3, 4, 5 YEARS.
I WAS NOT MENTALIST BUT I PERSON WHO USED HIS MIND (NO EYES) TO SEE THE FUTURE.
I USE MY EYES FOR ΜΥ ΤΕARS FOR THE SITUATION IN TABLE SOCCER.

Heinz Eder wrote:
Come down from your gallery and make things better instead of generalizing people who want to try their best. Maybe you can explain me what is so important on a FISTF job that somebody wants to stick on any chair?

Come on, Heinz. Don't you see any chair-loving in the latest tenures of Koutroumanos and Garnier? No work whatsoever to be seen, but the only guys who refuse to quit, no matter what.

I get your criticism about generalisations, but you also go wrong in your criticism of Kechris, because you take it to the other end. Kechris was partly right, but generalised. You also, but because it's Kechris you don't want to see the reason for chair-loving.

It's basic human nature. No matter how small community, the importance of the community to themselves is the decider. The people in charge can guide it where they want and feel the power. You can see it in a condo board in a house of 20 flats. Why wouldn't the same apply to FISTF...

I also recommend finding out more about the histrionics of some persons in Italy regarding the dispute between Old and FISTF games, and even the problems within the FISTF game. That also gives quite a nice insight on what makes people crave for chairs, that most of us see as "unimportant".

The most clear reason for example for SdF to keep a chair is to dictate the rules as he sees they should be. He loves the game, but if that was the only reason, he would co-operate and not exclude discussion, opinions and people. That is why he loves the chair. He can do what he wants... And he has done just that with strange changes to the handbook, which are criticised by many and not opened for debate or even explained rationally.

In most FISTF countries and overall in most societies, and in politics, you find this character. And you're damn lucky if you don't.

But perhaps it would be wise to start collecting positive names of thise who want to work for a community, not dictate the community.

"Maybe you are right that the one or other actually doesn't want to leave his seat, but why do you generalize?"
maybe you read over that sentence!? The history is a longer one than the last 2 boards and I think Kostas should get a mirror in his face to see how he acts against people without doing anything really constructive.

Vesa you can be sure that it is absolutely no privilege for me to work for FISTF or the national association or my club. I see it as a service on the members, nothing more and nothing less. If there is somebody who can do it better i'm the last one to stick on my chair, BUT it is not enough for me only to say I can do things better, I want a program and I want to discuss about it.
Please tell me the benefit of being sports director or president? I can't find even one. The majority of players don't respect you more or like you more only because you are the president or sports director.
Those who do so are not in my interest, because when I work for an association like FISTF I don't need people without an own opinion or agreeing always on my opinion, I would need people who are a conter part of mine, BUT and that's the big difference, I want them to be constructive not like Kostas.
This was the way how I came into the board of the association, the FISTF and my club. I tried to improve things first and showed misstandings and made proposals how to solve that and was ready to discuss about my ideas with people who had experience or showed me other ways too.
If I think i'm the oldest and the wisest, it won't bring us any step forward.

If I would love the chair so much I wouldn't try working together with Stefano without any responsibility only that the new season could be prepared at least in a normal way. Kostas called me opportunist for that, that shows his thoughts another time, he couldn't put his personal problem of defeat behind the interest of the community. For people like Kostas it is weakness for me it is something different called responsibility. To accept the defeat which surely hurts, but to help for the next season.
That's a big difference of menthality.
I didn't ask to help Stefano in january 2010, I was asked, Kostas interpreted it like I can't get off the chair so I must stay in the department near the chair, what a nonsense.

Honestly I also think it is a bit strange that you pick out the last sentence of my post and put it totally out of context.

Heinz
why you try to prove that i am wrong?
in my comments i didn't spend words for you.
we have different opinion for the matters.
if you are satisfied for the situation in FISTF i haven't problem.
for me Luis is unofficial member of BoD like Oli in ex BoD.
Both of them weren't elected and they haven't vote in BoD. SO SIMPLE.

p.s i "hate" you Vesa because your comments are much better than mine
But perhaps it would be wise to start collecting positive names of thise who want to work for a community, not dictate the community.

if you are not satisfied kostas then stand up as a candidate after your years of "ideas" and start changing something for all of us

talking is easy, changing things is not

Heinz Eder wrote:"Maybe you are right that the one or other actually doesn't want to leave his seat, but why do you generalize?"
maybe you read over that sentence!? The history is a longer one than the last 2 boards and I think Kostas should get a mirror in his face to see how he acts against people without doing anything really constructive.

If the conversation here is only about you and Kostas, then I'll take back my post. I agree that Kostas is not always constructive about ideas conflicting his. But on the other hand everyone is not made to be board members, so you can't really ask him to do that to have the right to speak. He does his work for the game in his club and city. I don't see the point of your and Kostas' arguments, because they never go anywhere. Just accept that he writes as he does, take the good parts, and leave the rest. If you don't like the style, just answer that you disagree, and leave it. I don't know why people who are not in "office" shouldn't be critical. What the level of criticism is, and how well argumentated is for everyone to judge.

For the quote from your text, you also generalize. It is a normal way in discussion. It's never black and white, but you can't discuss all possible greys, because they are too many.

Heinz Eder wrote:Vesa you can be sure that it is absolutely no privilege for me to work for FISTF or the national association or my club. I see it as a service on the members, nothing more and nothing less. If there is somebody who can do it better i'm the last one to stick on my chair, BUT it is not enough for me only to say I can do things better, I want a program and I want to discuss about it.
Please tell me the benefit of being sports director or president? I can't find even one.

See below, and my previous post.

There are always people like you, but there are always also people who see a FISTF chair as something important for themselves. The psychological reasons for it can be many. I don't know about others, but I was not talking about you, and I know that you want to work for the game. But this is why I reacted to your post. You take in on yourself when Kostas writes something, even though it was not about you. This is how I saw it. Maybe I was wrong.

Heinz Eder wrote:Honestly I also think it is a bit strange that you pick out the last sentence of my post and put it totally out of context.

I don't think my text was so far out of context. But the quote was maybe not a good one. Kostas was not generalizing everyone. He made the difference between friends of the game and chair-lovers. If he then sees only a small number of people as friends of the game is not generalizing.

And then I explained why some people love chairs. No matter how small the influence of the chair, or how negative. It's still a chair, and those people are not looking for friends or positive recognition. They want power and they want to fulfill their own agendas. And they don't give a rats ass if they are liked by the people who are against them.

Perhaps I also answered because Kostas mentioned some names, in which I could see 3 chair-lovers and 2 others. And these are the ones who have created the latest mess. And then you answer by talking about Kostas criticising people who do their best etc. I didn't see the connection to you in Kostas post. Maybe I'm just confused by you two.

Anyway, sorry for any offence. Didn't intend that.

We become more concrete.
FOR YOU Luis is not an official member of BoD, that's something different than your first comment "Luis is not official member of the board", You write things as you think they are, but in reality you don't use facts for your arguments you only use your personal opinion. For you things are simple as you think they are, but in many cases reality is different and that's complicate for you.
For you facts are not existing, because the world has to be as you think it should be.

Please show me the sentence where I said that I'm happy with FISTF?
One more time you only use assumptions, no facts.

As it seems you are actually happy with FISTF, because YOU are not ready to change things active.

Anyway have a nice evening, and try to write based more on facts.

kechris wrote:Heinz
why you try to prove that i am wrong?
in my comments i didn't spend words for you.
we have different opinion for the matters.
if you are satisfied for the situation in FISTF i haven't problem.
for me Luis is unofficial member of BoD like Oli in ex BoD.
Both of them weren't elected and they haven't vote in BoD. SO SIMPLE.

p.s i "hate" you Vesa because your comments are much better than mine
But perhaps it would be wise to start collecting positive names of thise who want to work for a community, not dictate the community.

Vesa, please think about the following questions.

What would you think about it, if somebody is asked to send ALL his ideas to have a discussion about it, but he refused it?
What would you think about it, if somebody is asked to come closer to sports department, but he refused to do so?
What would you think about somebody shouting down to the people in the arena from a gallery, but he refuses it everytime to take a seat in the first row next to the arena?
What would you think about it, if somebody refuses to work in a department because of personal problems with a director of another department?
How often would you invite somebody to discuss his points or even a whole program?
What do you think about somebody who says, he is not ready to discuss about his ideas?

I think the majority doesn't want Kostas to become a director, that's not the critic from my end, but he could be more interested to be part in a department, especially when it was offered to him already. If he refuses it, he is not trustworthy when blaming those who take respaonsibility in my opinion.

Heinz Eder wrote:Vesa, please think about the following questions.

What would you think about it, if somebody is asked to send ALL his ideas to have a discussion about it, but he refused it?
What would you think about it, if somebody is asked to come closer to sports department, but he refused to do so?
What would you think about somebody shouting down to the people in the arena from a gallery, but he refuses it everytime to take a seat in the first row next to the arena?
What would you think about it, if somebody refuses to work in a department because of personal problems with a director of another department?
How often would you invite somebody to discuss his points or even a whole program?
What do you think about somebody who says, he is not ready to discuss about his ideas?

Ok, good questions. But answers are not black and white. I understand the problem if the board is not trustworthy. Even 1 director can make it like that. I would never have worked for the current board after what happened in Madrid, althought in my case it is only hypothetical.

In the other matters it depends also on how people are invited, and what is the forum for the discussion. Has Kechris been invited to a similar department as Olivier had for sports? I mean one with closed group of people trying to solve certain things. Or has he just been invited, after criticism, to "show what you got". There is a big difference, and the reaction depends on the person.

If things in these questions are done in a manner where he would be appreciated as a constructive and equal part of the development, and tools (for example the way to discuss) are provided for the group to discuss with the goal of reaching the best democratic solution possible, then if he stays out, I join your criticism. I don't believe that I will just yet, but maybe this all has happened in the past.

Heinz Eder wrote:I think the majority doesn't want Kostas to become a director, that's not the critic from my end, but he could be more interested to be part in a department, especially when it was offered to him already. If he refuses it, he is not trustworthy when blaming those who take respaonsibility in my opinion.

I agree on this, if he criticises things that he could have influenced in a department. I certainly would include both of you in a department, perhaps even in the same one. But with clearer discussion lead by someone, than open forum discussion, which easily ends up in personal disagreement instead of wider compromise.

maxischn wrote:if you are not satisfied kostas then stand up as a candidate after your years of "ideas" and start changing something for all of us

Mark
the candidates cann't change the future.
THE VOTERS CAN.

i took the decision that this Europa cup was my last tournament in abroad after 18 years as traveller.
Three years before i took the decision to stop playing individual after 25 years as player.
In last two elections i porposed names who really love table soccer but other names elected.

I am sure that in one year i will could change table soccer. Clear rules, better tournaments, new promotion. But i prefer to keep my eyes and my mind open.
If really the voters wanted new ideas and tottaly different ideas like my ideas they can easy find me or other persons like Tilgner, Vesa etc

Head referee in Slovenia had a different opinion for a rule. I asked to see the rule. He hadn't rules in English in his tablet !!! We took place in FISTF tournament and English is the official language.
I know all the rules and i can read few in Italian language so i insisted to show me the rule. He still looking for this rule... I found the rule in his italian handbook and i proved him that i was right.

maxischn wrote:
talking is easy, changing things is not

Mark before 5 years i was in Austria for the possibility to transfer to your club. As you can remember i was free agent. Finally i continued play in Greece and i recreated Olympia by point 0. Ask by Heinz to find world ranking of 2006 and the list of Olympia's players. You will see the same names in list but you will not see more of the names in W.R or you will find them in last positions. After look the results in Slovenia's europa league. And finally look which club has the best 2nd team in W.R.(stembert and olympia but olympia didn't play at least 3 international tournaments in Greece the last two years because the federation fight us).

TALKING IS EASY.
CHANGING THINGS IS MORE EASY IF YOU KNOW THE WAY !!!