New member of the Finnish TF Association (subu ry)

I am very happy to announce that as of today (Saturday 23-10-10)
I (Georgios Papadopoulos - georgy) am a member of a very healthy and welcoming
association, the Finnish TF Association (subu ry - in Finnish).

I feel the need to thank von K. and zinga as well as any other responsible for accepting
and registering me, as a member of their association in such a short notice.

I was told that their association accepts foreign members and you do not have to live in Finland
(even though in my case I have a home there). The registration fee was only 10 euros which I
found very reasonable.

I still consider ridiculous the "rule"(???) that you have to be a member of an association in order to
have the right to play, but I guess we have to abide by the rules, and hopefully sometime, someone(s) will reconsider and "edit" this one. I think TF has such a small market pool, that this way we will lose players instead of getting new ones. Moreover from what I understand every association has different ways to deal with this, and probably most of them do not even care if you are a member or not. I would like someone here to be the devil's advocate, and explain why this is correct, but I think this is just me wishing

I still believe that there should be a CLEAR separation between a member and a player. Members have rights (i.e. vote), players do not bother about anything else, they just want to play and have fun. The FISTF database should be about players around the world. Members is a local matter of each national association. I really think that in the future we might have more problems if players have "problems" with the administration of their country.

Hopefully now I will not have any problems participating in international tournaments either abroad or in Greece!

Thanks again guys!

It has a really bitter taste, to become member of a foreigner association, in order to be able to play in your country .

I hope you will not have to change your name also someday.

Good luck in your new homeland...

georgy wrote:I am very happy to announce that as of today (Saturday 23-10-10)
I (Georgios Papadopoulos - georgy) am a member of a very healthy and welcoming
association, the Finnish TF Association (subu ry - in Finnish).

I feel the need to thank von K. and zinga as well as any other responsible for accepting
and registering me, as a member of their association in such a short notice.

I was told that their association accepts foreign members and you do not have to live in Finland
(even though in my case I have a home there). The registration fee was only 10 euros which I
found very reasonable.

I still consider ridiculous the "rule"(???) that you have to be a member of an association in order to
have the right to play, but I guess we have to abide by the rules, and hopefully sometime, someone(s) will reconsider and "edit" this one. I think TF has such a small market pool, that this way we will lose players instead of getting new ones. Moreover from what I understand every association has different ways to deal with this, and probably most of them do not even care if you are a member or not. I would like someone here to be the devil's advocate, and explain why this is correct, but I think this is just me wishing

I still believe that there should be a CLEAR separation between a member and a player. Members have rights (i.e. vote), players do not bother about anything else, they just want to play and have fun. The FISTF database should be about players around the world. Members is a local matter of each national association. I really think that in the future we might have more problems if players have "problems" with the administration of their country.

Hopefully now I will not have any problems participating in international tournaments either abroad or in Greece!

Thanks again guys!

thetruth wrote:It has a really bitter taste, to become member of a foreigner association, in order to be able to play in your country .

You know what is bitter?
Bitter is that 5-10 persons with their personal fights do not let the rest enjoy a game!
Bitter is that the arrogance of a few and the "everything is black n' white" complex of others does not let them sit on a table, make compromises and decide for the common good!
Bitter is that more than 20 years the same people become allies then enemies then allies again and so on... While the majority of the players suffers from this! A quick view in the greek history shows us that this is "our (his)story" from the ancient times.

thetruth wrote:
I hope you will not have to change your name also someday.

At least I do not hide behind a nickname in order to post in an international forum about subbuteo
It is really bitter, as you said (I would have used pathetic) to be over 40 and be afraid(?) to say your opinion while saying who you are!

thetruth wrote:
Good luck in your new homeland...

??? Greece is my homeland, Finland is the promised land , and actually delivers!

I just believe nobody should be prevented to play in tournaments. Being a member of a foreign association is not a long-term solution...

Admin wrote:I just believe nobody should be prevented to play in tournaments. Being a member of a foreign association is not a long-term solution...

We agree! That's why FISTF should separate PLAYERS (who have the right to play always) from
MEMBERS! And next time think ahead (not you, generally) before writing rules, which might be used
in order to obligate players to do something which might be, lets say, illogical or unfair.

On the other hand, I just want to point out that (most of us) we are in the EU in case some of us forgot it. If I believe that an EU association offers more to me as a member than another one, I do not see why I can't join it. Actually this way we might be able to separate "good" from possibly "bad" ones. Or ones who have something to offer to its members. This way also we can prevent associations from "waking up one day" and demanding from their members a huge fee. It is still logical that the majority will be members of their local association, because they can "get" what the association offers, and they do not have to travel.

Still for me it is TOTALLY CLEAR that there should be a clear separation between a PLAYER (which is what really matters FISTF) and a MEMBER.

Admin wrote:I just believe nobody should be prevented to play in tournaments. Being a member of a foreign association is not a long-term solution...

I totally agree with Vincent. This is a solution which helps someone who is selfish enough not to care about the rest of the players of his team/country and who in his forties is ready to change nationality just to play subbuteo!!!

If someone, apart from playing for himself, wants to fight against a wrong situation, he joins with other people and they altogether put an effort until a solution for all (not only for himself) is found.

So, Georgy, you solved your problem, congratulations, let us solve our problem the way we prefer.

Welcome Yrjö (finnish for George)!

Drastis, you should ask before judging. I understand your reaction, but it isn't fair and according to all facts (which I will not write here).

drastis wrote: This is a solution which helps someone who is selfish enough not to care about the rest of the players of his team/country and who in his forties is ready to change nationality just to play subbuteo!!!

George is not changing his nationality (we have already had a foreign member). He also has a tight relationship with Finland. We know him here. But he can't participate in our national championships, just as the australian Eliot Kennedy didn't.

George has cared for other people not able to play, as you can read in this forum (and otherwise). But I hear that some others have just paid and then played. How long must a player wait?

Why should a player, not really interested in the power struggles but only the playing and fairness and rules, in his forties fight in courts just to play subbuteo?

drastis wrote:So, Georgy, you solved your problem, congratulations, let us solve our problem the way we prefer.

Have you asked George if he will still be on your side? Maybe you should do that first.

Can you explain the statutes of this transfer to other federation?
George will keep his nationality (Greek) but he will member of Finnish federation. He cann't play in Finish federation national league. But he can't play also in Greek's federation national league as member of other federation.
Can he play in national team of Finnish and Greece? Maybe no.
He will play in international tournaments in team events as Finnish or Greek player?
If four persons like George decide to be members in other association and after they will create a club, then the club belong in Finnish or Greek federation.
I remember many problems in past with Verhagen for example who change federation. He played as englishman in international tournaments, in England national team and for his english club as player with english nationality.

kechris wrote:Can you explain the statutes of this transfer to other federation?
George will keep his nationality (Greek) but he will member of Finnish federation. He cann't play in Finish federation national league. But he can't play also in Greek's federation national league as member of other federation.
Can he play in national team of Finnish and Greece? Maybe no.
He will play in international tournaments in team events as Finnish or Greek player?
If four persons like George decide to be members in other association and after they will create a club, then the club belong in Finnish or Greek federation.
I remember many problems in past with Verhagen for example who change federation. He played as englishman in international tournaments, in England national team and for his english club as player with english nationality.

First, George did not change his nationality.

Second, George can play in our national tournaments as those are open to our members. George and Eliot Kennedy both have earlier participated in our national ranking tournaments, as they are closely related to Finland.

Third, George is not entitled to participate to our national championships, due to the nationality (not Finnish).

Fourth, if George will get double nationality in the future (I assume he does not yet have Finnish nationality), we can start discussing national teams. Until then, the discussion about national team is not relevant.

We, as a national association, have to act on the basis of our statutes. Thus, the application of George was easy to accept. If only other associations would also follow their statutes, we would not have the current (I dare not to mention) problems.

If you make a club in the finnish association, the club is a finnish one and you have problems to play if there are only members with greek nationality, because there are only 2 foreign players allowed in a team.
but maybe it is a try worth, who knows what the board decides in such a case. The rules don't allow that.
Generally to the discussion about membership I have to say, that a change would be useful for international events, but i don't think FISTF needs to do the seperation between players and members, because players aren't members of FISTF anyway. The member of FISTF is the association. It is enough to say that every player is allowed to play international tournaments undependent of his status. If a player doesn't want to join an association he can only qualify over the WR, that's all. That's not the problem and I think it would be better than players join other associations that they can play FISTF events.
In case of clubs licenced by FISTF the club needs a country, which should be given when the registration of the club is done. Those clubs also can only qualify over WR for the EC. They shouldn't be allowed to change their status during the season, same as players.
Of course FISTF should ask a registration fees of those clubs and players.

Heinz

kechris wrote:Can you explain the statutes of this transfer to other federation?
George will keep his nationality (Greek) but he will member of Finnish federation. He cann't play in Finish federation national league. But he can't play also in Greek's federation national league as member of other federation.
Can he play in national team of Finnish and Greece? Maybe no.
He will play in international tournaments in team events as Finnish or Greek player?
If four persons like George decide to be members in other association and after they will create a club, then the club belong in Finnish or Greek federation.
I remember many problems in past with Verhagen for example who change federation. He played as englishman in international tournaments, in England national team and for his english club as player with english nationality.

So Heinz , if i understand your words you mean that in a greek club can play 6 greek persons who are members in other association without problem.
The club can play in international tournaments and the players can play also in every tournament of FISTF.
For the national tournaments and for national team responsible is the greek federation.
The same occasion is if last year Mattesburg and Napoli didn't play in national leagues but they can qualify in Champion league by World ranking and as holder.
It is not good solution for associations but if associations don't want members , there aren't another solution.
Papadopoulos is new Bosman.

Your interpretation of my post depends on the rules of the greek federation.
As far as i know the greek federation is based on individual members, so I'm not sure if it is possible to register a club in greek federation without a number of members in the greek federation.
In the end it is not important what association you belong to as long as you are not interested in playing national events for an example. You don't change your nationality and if an association is ready to accept you as member, it was never a problem for FISTF (i don't know the situation now ).
I would prefer a change in rules before seeing that players are looking for the best association for them only to play international events.
The problem always is that a change in your favour would cause problems for other associations, but there are other people to think about that
In Austria everybody can play national championships if he is member of the austrian federation, but players who are not austrian can't qualify for WC.

Heinz

kechris wrote:So Heinz , if i understand your words you mean that in a greek club can play 6 greek persons who are members in other association without problem.
The club can play in international tournaments and the players can play also in every tournament of FISTF.
For the national tournaments and for national team responsible is the greek federation.
The same occasion is if last year Mattesburg and Napoli didn't play in national leagues but they can qualify in Champion league by World ranking and as holder.
It is not good solution for associations but if associations don't want members , there aren't another solution.
Papadopoulos is new Bosman.

kechris wrote:... a greek club can play 6 greek persons who are members in other association without problem.
The club can play in international tournaments and the players can play also in every tournament of FISTF.

Papadopoulos is new Bosman.

Nice! At least you understood it correctly!
Please explain it to your friend because I have no energy or need to start fighting publicly with
people who write bullshit and attack without knowing all the details!

Von K. and zinga thanks for the comments and explanations!
Finnish national team e??? Hmmm, tempting! At least my kids who already have both nationalities
can do it
I guess for me, I need to live in Finland for a few years! I think it's on the way!

Sorry George but i agree with my friend.
Of course you found a "hole" in rules because your wife is Finnish but i am proud for my country and i prefer to fight for a fair greek association than to leave by the "hole" as mouse.
My wife is Greek and i don't want to ask from people in other countries to be member in their association. I played twice final for Greece in W.C. and i don't want to delete my past because a sick fool and full of complex person who he thinks that he is president...
I also think that this hole is very dangerous for the future of world table soccer community. I don't want to be responsible for this.
The rest Olympia players cann't play in international tournaments and i prefer to stand on their side.
since last month the name of Olympia is absent of the list of clubs in official site of greek association. So how we can play in team events without club?
My slogan is "the solutions are simple the decisions are difficult". I took my decision before two years. I asked my right by THE LAW in THE COURTS. VERY SIMPLE DECISION. I like the letters GRE after my name.

Kechris,

A new problem is not created for TF community, if more people do this. It's practically the same situation as with foreign players in a club. The only problem can be for associations who lose money from membership fees, if they don't care for players. Where do you see a problem?

George did like your slogan says. He made a difficult decision (you think it was easy for him?). But the solution was simple, because anyone can become a member of our association (even if he remains a member of another association). We accept everyone.

I don't think you know all the reasons for George decision. It's not my place to tell them.

But if more foreign members would join our association, I would think it would be strange, if they have no connection to Finland. But it's not prohibited in our rules, so anyone is welcome if he feels like it.

George will from now on have the letters GRE after his name, because HE REMAINS A GREEK. I don't think he will even give up his nationality in the future, because Finland doesn't (to my last knowledge) allow dual nationality if you are not born with it. So if George would join a finnish club, he would be a foreigner. In a greek club he would not be.

Have you asked him his opinion of the greek matter after this decision? Has it changed? He was the first (apart from you and Drazinakis) to write about it here.

You should criticize the silent ones, the payers who give up, and those who think only of themselves from the beginning. But not George who has already made it clear he is on your (not necessarily you personally, but in the matter) side.

In this matter you don't respect a teammate (former?), who has reasons for this and who has done more than many could ask for (he isn't a historical greek player, just a normal player). He wants to play, but he is ready to go to a foreign association rather than pay in Greece. I really wish you think this again. But, of course, you can have your opinion.

All the best,
Vesa

Guys take it easy.

Kosta pay a little more attention to what Giorgos wrote: the game in Greece is destroyed by "old" frictions between people. He seems to think that nothing will change in the future, even if you win the court (which seems very likely). I decided not to play again (table football is not going to miss me, I know) because I also believe that to be true.

If only you stopped attacking each other...

Dear Vesa.

I love the discussion with you but in few points you have wrong. I know me and more of Olympia players all the reasons for George's decision.
The same problem with George ( no play) had ALL olympia's players. Because all of us we are against unfair elections.
Until few days before in Olympia we critisize the players of the rest clubs who support us but only with words and with their acts support the "president". Because they wanted to play they accepted all the unfair acts by him. But everyday they ask us news for the court.
George's mistake for me is that he believes that if the one side stop then the problem will solve immediately because after the other side will also stop. He follow this tactic and he didn't play the first day of tournament in veterans. HIS TACTIC FAILED.
I cann't accept the solution " i have problem with my association i will find other association". Then every 10 players can create a new association. And when George has different opinion with you then can he change again association?
Before 40 years we have hounta in Greece. All the famous politicals leave the Greece and went to Paris. The rest politicals stayed in Greece and they fight for democracy and they had problems.
I haven't any personal problem with George , he continue coming to Olympia's hall, but i don't like that he forgot his promises. "I will not take part in any tournament if president don't allow to you (olympia's players) to take part too." He forgot very fast his ex teammates and friends.

p.s. Panagios had right. It will be very difficult to change the situation in Greek table soccer if ALL the greek players and clubs will not help the next FAIR and LEGAL elected BoD.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPEED IN LAST WEEEKEND'S TOURNAMENT. F I G H T S. THE DISCUSSIONS WERE FULL OF @#%* AND OLYMPIA WAS TOTALLY ABSENT.

Kostas,

I think we both have understandable points in this matter. And it is not a black and white matter.

I don't know what has been said or agreed personally and when. I only know that to me he has enough good reasons to make up his mind this way. He hasn't joined "the enemy", he has chosen the grey area.

It's a very difficult thing morally, and we all have our views. But I honestly don't think it's a thing that should cause this much negativity among you guys. Ok, he started playing. But he also did a lot for you before this. I think it should compensate.

The history, as you for example mentioned the Greece junta/hounta, is full of situations where some people can't take it anymore, and will leave someway. Others will stay. For more ordinary example (and closer to your case) I mention harassment or bullying at work. Some people leave, but they still sue legally. Some stay and fight at the work place. I would never judge anyone who leaves a work place because of harassment. Although I applaud those who keep fighting. But it's an individual decision based on so many things.

It's very sad to read the last lines and the post by Panagios. The cradle of democracy is at a state like this in a small game. But then again the early democracy only had some people who could vote, while the others couldn't.

I hope in Greece and FISTF people would start to use their energy for the game. Not for themselves, for power, on their own country (in FISTF) or against each other. But it seems like a utopia.

Dear Vesa.
I agree with all your post. I think that our ideas are very close. Except a small point. And the reason for this point is that you are away from the Greece and you cann't understand 100% the situation.
The point is:

von K. wrote:He hasn't joined "the enemy", he has chosen the grey area.

In war there are not grey area. You must select side. Or with us or against us. George is with us. He didn't change as i know opinion for greek president and for the situation in Greece. But -yes but- he has chosen the grey area because he wants to play. But grey area means that he is not in acts against president and he is not with us.
That is only my problem with George's selection. Nothing other. I didn't like who leave from the first line of war because he wants peace. I like peace but i will fight for it. I will not leave the others to fight for my peace.
I hope to understand my english. I do big efforts because before 25 years i prefer playing subbuteo than reading my lessons in English.

kechris wrote:
The point is:

von K. wrote:He hasn't joined "the enemy", he has chosen the grey area.

In war there are not grey area. You must select side. Or with us or against us.

Some people think this way about things. I don't.

Maybe it is because Finland has remained impartial in world conflicts, and has chosen a side in a war only when its existence has depended on it.

I know the cultural thing makes a big difference, and it is quite hard sometimes to understand it. And I don't know enough about greek culture. And I haven't lived your situation.

kechris wrote:George is with us. He didn't change as i know opinion for greek president and for the situation in Greece. But -yes but- he has chosen the grey area because he wants to play. But grey area means that he is not in acts against president and he is not with us.
That is only my problem with George's selection. Nothing other.

I understand your disappointment in an issue like this, from your point of view. But I also understand George's disappointment.

If you think he is not with you, then he should be against you. But think it the other way around (the glass is half full, not half empty), He is not against you, so he is with you. Things have always many sides and perspectives.

I can assure yoy that you will be happier if you think in this situation that George is not against you.

His decision has also shown everyone how unbelievable things people must do to get to play. It opens people's eyes, and is even good for your cause.

kechris wrote:I hope to understand my english. I do big efforts because before 25 years i prefer playing subbuteo than reading my lessons in English.

No problem! I understand what you write.