Bennett's ban

I read this from the SN forum, and it's hard to know whether to laugh or cry.

Dear Sirs/Madams,
On July 30th, 2011, FISTF received from ESTFA – English Subbuteo Table Football
Association, a letter about the disciplinary decision taken by this National Association
against Mr. Kaspar Bennet with the exclusion from any competition held by ESTFA until
August 31st. 2012.
The FISTF President decided that the decision taken by ESTFA was fully accept by
FISTF and it will be extended to every FISTF competitions during the same period of time.
This decision must be followed by all FISTF Event’s Competition Managers.

I did read what happened in the World Cup and I fully agree with the decision by ESTFA, because the offence was harming them and their players.

But...

What harm did the FISTF suffer? A referee has been missing before and it does not result in a ban for a year. A player can be drunk and late, but it doesn't result in a ban for a year. From what I've seen, heard and read during the last few years, a player can do almost anything and he will not be banned for one year.

And now, without the disciplinary board, who is FISTF's body regarding these matters, and without a proper hearing, Capponi decides solo that Bennett has somehow done something so awful that he should not be able to play anywhere officially for a year!

Give me a bloody break! This is exactly what I wanted to change, when running for President. Situations where the ruling bodies and clear procedures are disregarded and rules forgotten.

Would FISTF have done anything if it weren't for the ESTFA ban? If not, then why do they do it now?

I urge every federation to strongly oppose this decision. I also urge the ESTFA to oppose this decision by FISTF. It is between the ESTFA and Bennett, and no one else, if I have understood correctly what happened.

You're right Vesa. I don't say Kaspar's ban shouldn't be extended but it's the job of the disciplinary council to decide that.

A few more thoughts:
- at least we know that Capponi is still there despite he announced in public he resigned after the world cup (!) (and since then he looked like dead because nothing changed in FISTF)
- what will FISTF do about the reall bad happenings in Belgium this week-end? We had a fantastic tournament in Stembert in a very fair spirit but one game was a total disgrace for the sport because of the behavior of 3 persons. I believe it's much more important than Kaspar's absence.
- what about the decision of FISTF towards greek players registered to the world cup? The whole greek team didn't show up. As according to what is clearly written in the handbook every absent player should get a fine and is suspended for the next world cup (the text is as follows: "Withdrawal of a team in the last 48 hours before the competition: 100 Euros and suspension for the next
World Cup.") -> Will Capponi have the balls to sanction his good friend Koutromanos?

Sorry but FISTF is a joke and Capponi is an even bigger joke. It's really time to get rid of this guy who changes opinion more often than he changes clothes.

'''''''what about the decision of FISTF towards greek players registered to the world cup? The whole greek team didn't show up. As according to what is clearly written in the handbook every absent player should get a fine and is suspended for the next world cup (the text is as follows: "Withdrawal of a team in the last 48 hours before the competition: 100 Euros and suspension for the next
World Cup.") -> Will Capponi have the balls to sanction his good friend Koutromanos?''''''''''''''''''''


Next time try to be better informed before you write such things. I am the man in charge of the Hellenic national teams department and i send official e- mails to stefano de francesco on 14/07/2011 when it was obvious that we can't afford to go.
It is obvious that you don't like the greeks. Keep it for yourself and next time try to be more precise.
P.S: Due to many of your decisions in the past many greeks don't like you also.

Admin wrote:- at least we know that Capponi is still there despite he announced in public he resigned after the world cup (!) (and since then he looked like dead because nothing changed in FISTF)

I wrote to Piero and complained about missing minutes of Palermo and his last official communication only published on SN forum. NO ANSWER so far. Nobody knows what's going on at the moment. Even not Fred as Financial Manager.

Admin wrote:
- what will FISTF do about the reall bad happenings in Belgium this week-end? We had a fantastic tournament in Stembert in a very fair spirit but one game was a total disgrace for the sport because of the behavior of 3 persons. I believe it's much more important than Kaspar's absence.

First of all the organiser should send a report to the Sports Department (in cc to DC). Then this issue can be handled by the DC.

Admin wrote:- what about the decision of FISTF towards greek players registered to the world cup? The whole greek team didn't show up. As according to what is clearly written in the handbook every absent player should get a fine and is suspended for the next world cup (the text is as follows: "Withdrawal of a team in the last 48 hours before the competition: 100 Euros and suspension for the next World Cup.") -> Will Capponi have the balls to sanction his good friend Koutromanos?

Do you have safe info about a late withdrawal ? My information (not safe!) says it wasn't late ....

Admin wrote: It's really time to get rid of this guy who changes opinion more often than he changes clothes.

Regarding the past few years I totally agree. Starting with full motivation for an idea in the first few weeks and then loosing motivation when the first headwind is coming up. To be honest: did we expect something else ?

I am still in the mood to leave them alone. But regarding the IDEA of FISTF I know I am on the wrong way. We all have to ask ourselves what we can do for FISTF.

The Rock wrote:It is obvious that you don't like the greeks.

The Rock wrote:P.S: Due to many of your decisions in the past many greeks don't like you also.

That sounds like a cheap tit-for-tat response. Do you need it ?

'''''''''That sounds like a cheap tit-for-tat response. Do you need it ?''''''''''''''''

I am not the one who started it. I am bored seeing every time insulting comments against my country.


''''''Do you have safe info about a late withdrawal ? My information (not safe!) says it wasn't late ....''''''

Can't you read??? I send the official mail on 14/07/2011. So it was not a late withdrawal. I expect an apologie from Vincent for writing things without proof. If he wants i can forward him the withdrawal mail. And please find something else to deal with. I believe that the are more serious matters inside the subbuteo community.

The Rock wrote:'''''''what about the decision of FISTF towards greek players registered to the world cup? The whole greek team didn't show up. As according to what is clearly written in the handbook every absent player should get a fine and is suspended for the next world cup (the text is as follows: "Withdrawal of a team in the last 48 hours before the competition: 100 Euros and suspension for the next
World Cup.") -> Will Capponi have the balls to sanction his good friend Koutromanos?''''''''''''''''''''


Next time try to be better informed before you write such things. I am the man in charge of the Hellenic national teams department and i send official e- mails to stefano de francesco on 14/07/2011 when it was obvious that we can't afford to go.
It is obvious that you don't like the greeks. Keep it for yourself and next time try to be more precise.
P.S: Due to many of your decisions in the past many greeks don't like you also.

Sorry but you are 100% wrong. OK, you wrote on 14/07 that you woudln't go but didn't you know before that you wouldn't go? Sorry but when you register players for the WC, you have to give names of people who are going to travel, not of people "who might have a small chance to travel". You probably knew a long time before (even when you gave the names) that all thoseGreeks would come. Anyway, Ppakonstantinou as still registered and didn't show up (he was in the draw) so he should be punished!

@The Rock: the problem is that the same kind of problems always come with the same nations. Greece has lost all its credibility because of this kind of attitude. Remember the WC in the Netherlands. Greeks were among those who said "we refuse to have the next WC in Denmark because there are no Danes playing here". And this year where were the Greeks? How do you think Greece manage to convince people to go to a world cup run in the worst period of the year (mid-july)? Koutromanos tried to save his head by telling people the WC will be held int he stadium of Olympiakos but do you think many people care? I guess many more people would better get rid of Koutromanos.

Back to the original topic, maybe?

What I'd like to know is: What did Bennett do against FISTF rules that makes a one year ban from all competitions the correct and fair sentence? It's very important to know, because I think this is clearly a case of prejudice treatment against one player, when many other players have done at least the same, and I don't know which rule gives the possibility of this sentence at all, let alone without a disciplinary hearing.

It's very dangerous, when we already know that equal members of FISTF are unequal in so many ways according to some people in charge. And we have already witnessed unequal treatment of people by FISTF management.

So, anyone with any information about the rules regarding what happened, and thus the legal base of this decision.

Do any rules apply equally anymore? I think it's safe to say that the answer is no.

The ESTFA statement (below) doesn't give any indication on how FISTF could ban the player for a year. There are clear rules and sanctions about refereeing and playing duty, but they don't include a year's ban. The only thing I see is that some important people happened to see the incident, but it makes absolutely no difference, as the rant was aimed at ESTFA and their group.

"Following the recent World Cup in Palermo, it has been the unpleasant duty of the ESTFA to draw up sanctions against one of our members, Kaspar Bennett. Mr Bennett was a member of the Open team due to represent England on the Sunday and also one of our Open representatives on the Saturday.

On the Saturday, after Mr Bennett was knocked out, he was due to referee a game, but left the event despite being told of this duty. Alan Collins kindly took over his duties. Mr Bennett then enjoyed a fine evening out.

On Sunday morning England captain Chris Thomas was unable to wake Mr Bennett and so the team had to attend the tournament one player short. Mr Bennett missed the first two referee duties on Sunday and also the first playing match, arriving too late to play in England's second match of three.

After an exchange between the rest of the team and Mr Bennett, the latter was verbally abusive about the ESTFA and England, all of this in front of high ranking officials from FISTF, IOC and Italian sporting federations and government officials.

ESTFA Chairman asked for statements from all players, and in these Mr Bennett accepted that he "didn't/couldn't get up in time because he had drunk too much the night before".

The ESTFA feels that Mr Bennett has let his team-mates, the association and all of its members, and himself down, and this is not the first time that this kind of incident has occured involving Mr Bennett. As he had already admitted his 'guilt', all that was left for the ESTFA to do was decide on the sanction.

It is (after appeal) as follows;

Mr Bennett will be banned from all ESTFA events for a period of 12 months with the last 6 months suspended, starting on 1st September 2011.

Mr Bennett is fined £150, this to be split 3 ways. Each England player who was able to play will get £50 to compensate the extra night hotel costs that could have been avoided. Mr Bennett will also be held responsible for any possible fines resulting from his actions.

Mr Bennett will not be selected for the 2012 World Cup in Greece 2012.

FISTF have been informed of this decision.

It has not been easy to issue these sanctions against one of our top players. But no player is bigger that the ESTFA and we cannot allow players who represent us to behave in this way and let down other players who would be proud to wear the England shirt and represent the ESTFA."

I'd like to know how this is worse for FISTF than 2 major nations (with voices of Silvio Catania and Stefano De Francesco) shouting aloud threats of cancelling the World Cup team competition (in Rain) half an hour before the start, because they wanted to use a rule that was not effective until the start of the next season. I'm just curious...

Or a FISTF president who leaves a world cup saying he's resigning because he's unhappy of the behavior of some young maltese kids. Isn't that stupid?

'''''''You probably knew a long time before (even when you gave the names) that all thoseGreeks would come.''''''''''''''

We did our best to go but due to economical reasons we could't go. It is the first time after many yearsthat we could't participate. But greeks always travelling abroad for tournaments and have suppurted fistf events. We have analyze this issue much. We travell everywhere. Many of you travell only when you can go to the venue by 3-4 hour drive. We deserve more respect.

''''''You probably knew a long time before (even when you gave the names) that all those Greeks would come. Anyway, Ppakonstantinou as still registered and didn't show up (he was in the draw) so he should be punished!'''''''''''''''''

One more time you are writing without proper argumentation and documents. In the past many times i had personal problems with papakonstantinou. And we had and good times too. But this time he had a crusial operation of 5 hours and his life was in a great danger. But anyway i send the cansellation e-mail for papakonstantinou on 20/7/2011 wednesday morning at 2.36 a.m. I can also forward it to you if you want. So it was more than 48 hours. It is almost 78 hours before the competition.
So please find something else to bother.

As for kaspar: The job of banning players is the job of the disciplinary counsil. Not of the b.o.d or the president's . So this decision does not exist. It can exist only if the D.C decides so.
Even if i agree that kasper should be punished, i think that one whole year is too much and it is unfair to be announced 1 day before an international tournament, where his greek teammates had already started their journey.

De Francesco:

"In the new handbook all disciplinary decisions decided by federations, will be set by FISTF."

This is quite ludicrous and a must to protest!

FISTF has got nothing to do with internal matters of associations. If someone is not liked in a country, this would mean he would easily be forced the game altogether.

Madness, pure madness!

If Bennett did anything against FISTF rules, he should be judged by FISTF rules.

I also read De Francesco saying that we don't need people like this, people coming to World Cup drunk etc (I didn't see many austrians sober in one World Cup, no offence meant). Ok, but is it in the rules to ban for a year for such behaviour. And how can a director of FISTF go on a personal attack against a player, when we all know what things are happening all the time, and he has not even had a proper hearing from a disciplinary panel. "We don't need this kind of people" is also a strange thing to say, when a player is only given 1 year of ban. Nice to come back to play after that...

And then there are cultural differences. For an italian spittin on a national shirt is maybe a different thing that for many others. So why not let only ESTFA judge him? They know the cultural environment of their own players. For some this could mean treason, for others it would mean nothing more than a little frustration.

Sorry about the rant, but I really feel sick to my stomach reading some people's comments from their high horses, when they are forgetting their own mistakes.

Forgive and forget, give the guy a break. He has been banned for a year by ESTFA, which is also publicly announced in ESTFA site, which is such a big punishment that I've not heard of anything like it in TF.

p.s. Shouldn't we also ban persons who are manipulating FISTF for their own benefit by threats? And persons acting as Junior team leaders questioning the work of referees during a game and advicing them to shoot a moving ball away on the extra time? Are those people worth the game and the World Cup?

Mike Parnaby:

When we originally notified FISTF of our decision we did ask FISTF to support it. This was because the original decision included a sanction where we were going to refuse Kaspar's membership and therefore his FISTF licence to play.

I don't get this. Is there really a license needed to play FISTF tournaments? I didn't think there was any reason for being a member of any association, because of the problems it creates. Maybe I'm wrong about the rule, but I remember extremely good discussion about it when Olympia had its problems with PAFTAP membership.

von K. wrote:Shouldn't we also ban persons who are manipulating FISTF for their own benefit by threats? And persons acting as Junior team leaders questioning the work of referees during a game and advicing them to shoot a moving ball away on the extra time? Are those people worth the game and the World Cup?

You're putting the finger on the right problem of our game!

Heinz Eder wrote in a nutshell in the SN forum (I could read it yesterday) about the problem. If the same thing happens and four countries have the following outcomes:

a) no ban b) ESTFA outcome c) 2 or more years ban d) a ban but no report to FISTF

then the FISTF will have three different punishments for the same thing:

a) no ban for FISTF b) FISTF ban c) bigger FISTF ban d) no ban because no report even though otherwise same thing as b) or c)

I'm feeling like a person in a Kafka novel.

Will every local decision from now on become a FISTF matter? Let's have a funny imaginary scenario. I'm banned at my club for something like not respecting my teammates and leaving in the middle of a club tournament. The ban is reported to the local association, which bans me and sends a report to the national association, which bans me and sends the report to FISTF which of course bans me, because "I'm the kind of person not wanted in TF" according to the sporting director. It sounds like exaggeration, but in reality this is what would happen if everyone followed the example set by the "leaders" of the game, FISTF president and sporting director.

This case underlines also why people should be interested in the TF politics a bit more.

You have a few beers and then a row at the club, and next thing you know, you don't play officially for a year...

To avoid misunderstandings, I think the verdict of ESTFA on the matter was spot on, especially with the fine split for the other players.

Here's a final thought for the professionals. Why weren't the french football players banned from all FIFA football after the disgraceful scenes from their camp in the World Cup 2010?

You're right about the fact that people are not interested about politics in TF. Only a few people care... Others only care when they have personal interests involved.

About the France football team, I like the exemple :-)

von K. wrote:I also read De Francesco saying that we don't need people like this, people coming to World Cup drunk etc (I didn't see many austrians sober in one World Cup, no offence meant). Ok, but is it in the rules to ban for a year for such behaviour. And how can a director of FISTF go on a personal attack against a player, when we all know what things are happening all the time, and he has not even had a proper hearing from a disciplinary panel. "We don't need this kind of people" is also a strange thing to say, when a player is only given 1 year of ban. Nice to come back to play after that...

A MUST of an official is to remain and act objectively. Otherwise he/she is loosing credibility completely .... anything else to say in this matter. SdF lost his path ....

von K. wrote:I don't get this. Is there really a license needed to play FISTF tournaments? I didn't think there was any reason for being a member of any association, because of the problems it creates. Maybe I'm wrong about the rule, but I remember extremely good discussion about it when Olympia had its problems with PAFTAP membership.

Well, not easy to answer. Officially there is no real license system within FISTF. We have had this discussion for years. The main problem is the non-existing self-understanding of FISTF: is it a players association or an associations federation ?

Vincent strongly supported the idea of a players association. As from Silvio Catania's time the board switched to the other side in order to get more strong associations. It is not easy as an example may show: Individuals register for a tournament and don't show up. Who will be held responsible (regarding fines etc)? As for Vincent: the player ! As from Catania's time: the association.
Open for discussion as I don't know the right answer .....

Hi to all, I read that topic now and want to comment some things, but I won't quote all the text.

Von K.
The english association banned Kasper from being member of ESTFA in their first decision, ESTFA thought that this wouldn't have any affect for Kasper, if FISTF wouldn't support the decision of ESTFA and extend the ban to FISTF events too. They thought Kasper could get then easily a FISTF licence and play FISTF events.
So the english association asked FISTF to support their decision, FISTF did the mistake to follow blind and ESTFA did also a mistake, they didn't seem to inform FISTF that the decision against Kasper isn't final because as we can read on subbuteonews Kasper seemed to appeal against the decision and now it is changed. Additionally FISTF wouldn't have needed to give an extra statement on that.
Now Kasper don't loose his membership in ESTFA, so he will get a licence from ESTFA, but FISTF banned him from FISTF events for the periode of 1 season.

Janus:
FISTF has a model of licence but the problem was that nobody respected it. FISTF clearly is an association built of associations, and those associations normally have to licence their players who are allowed to take part at FISTF events. There are 2 kinds of licences. The licence from the national association and the licence by FISTF, which should be only used if there is no official association existing in a country. So knowing that, I'm really wondering why FISTF took an own decision on Kasper's case, because if they see that ESTFA don't give a licence to Kasper, it is clear that he can't play FISTF events, because FISTF can't give him a single licence because there is an association existing, so finally there was no need to confirm the decision and extend it on FISTF tournaments, FISTF only would have to wait if Kasper gets a licence or not.
People only would need to read their own rules even, then many problems wouldn't happen. Generally I always agreed on the system of licence, but unfortunately we didn't take it serious enough.

Heinz

Heinz Eder wrote:
Janus:
FISTF has a model of licence but the problem was that nobody respected it. FISTF clearly is an association built of associations, and those associations normally have to licence their players who are allowed to take part at FISTF events. There are 2 kinds of licences. The licence from the national association and the licence by FISTF, which should be only used if there is no official association existing in a country. So knowing that, I'm really wondering why FISTF took an own decision on Kasper's case, because if they see that ESTFA don't give a licence to Kasper, it is clear that he can't play FISTF events, because FISTF can't give him a single licence because there is an association existing, so finally there was no need to confirm the decision and extend it on FISTF tournaments, FISTF only would have to wait if Kasper gets a licence or not.
People only would need to read their own rules even, then many problems wouldn't happen. Generally I always agreed on the system of licence, but unfortunately we didn't take it serious enough.

Heinz, partially agreed. But I would like to explain by examples why the "licence model" of FISTF doesn't work:
- In Germany we don't have a licence system. We only know members. By paying their membership fee the members have several rights: they are allowed to vote and they are allowed to play our national tournaments, and ... and ... and.
But what about a german player NOT being member of our association ? Example: Rudi Knuf was registered with an italian club but no member of our association. Who grants him a licence ? He was not interested in playing national tournaments. But regarding FISTF he was allowed to play FISTF tournaments in Germany. And I totally accept that. I can't force anybody to be member of our association!
Regarding fines the story becomes totally crazy. If he would register for a tournament but wouldn't show up who would have to pay the fine ? For my understanding the player. For the understanding of FISTF the association. But what association ? The Italian ? The German ?
I don't have an answer.

- What about those players not being germans but living here since their birth ? As long as they have a foreign passport they are no germans. What happens if their nationality lacks of an association (example: Turkey). Who grants a licence ? I would say if they become member of our association then we should grant a licence. But is it correct ?

- What about those german players (maybe I have never seen) directly registering for a tournament in a foreign country for the first time ? Maybe this player even didn't know about an association in Germany! Should a player have a licence first before playing or what ?????

Janus_Gersie wrote:
- In Germany we don't have a licence system. We only know members. By paying their membership fee the members have several rights: they are allowed to vote and they are allowed to play our national tournaments, and ... and ... and.
But what about a german player NOT being member of our association ? Example: Rudi Knuf was registered with an italian club but no member of our association. Who grants him a licence ? He was not interested in playing national tournaments. But regarding FISTF he was allowed to play FISTF tournaments in Germany. And I totally accept that. I can't force anybody to be member of our association!

He should be licenced by the german association of course. if you ask him to pay membership fee or not is your internal problem, but he is registered with the german association, but don't play national tournaments.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Regarding fines the story becomes totally crazy. If he would register for a tournament but wouldn't show up who would have to pay the fine ? For my understanding the player. For the understanding of FISTF the association. But what association ? The Italian ? The German ?
I don't have an answer.

If he is licenced by the german association, the german association gets the information to pay the fine, if he is registered with the german association, the association should have at least his data. I don't think that he would refuse it to be member of the german association, if the association wouldn't ask a membership fee from him, so it shouldn't be the real problem.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
- What about those players not being germans but living here since their birth ? As long as they have a foreign passport they are no germans. What happens if their nationality lacks of an association (example: Turkey). Who grants a licence ? I would say if they become member of our association then we should grant a licence. But is it correct ?

All those players who are not germans and have a passport from a country, where no official association is existing have to ask FISTF for a licence. So the turkish player would have to request an individual licence from FISTF, which would make it clear that he only can qualify for a WC if he is in the top 16, because without an association the player can't represent the country.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
- What about those german players (maybe I have never seen) directly registering for a tournament in a foreign country for the first time ? Maybe this player even didn't know about an association in Germany! Should a player have a licence first before playing or what ?????

Those players should get a temporary licence for that tournament and when they are ranked, they need to have a german licence to play the next tournament.

Generally I think it should be clear that every player with a german passport should be registered in the german association. If Rudi for an example wouldn't be ready to be licenced from the german association he couldn't play. If the german association only asks for membership fee if the players play individual competitions then it is up to the german federation to change its rules that players like Rudi could get a licence without paying full membership.

It could be very easy in most cases I think.

Heinz Eder wrote:
He should be licenced by the german association of course. if you ask him to pay membership fee or not is your internal problem, but he is registered with the german association, but don't play national tournaments.

I don't see any sense in it. DSTFB should grant a licence to players who are germans by birth ? What about those germans living abroad ? What is the common thread ?

And what about those players having problems with their national association and therefore don't want to be member of that association ? The nationality association could use the licence system to put pressure on those players .... that's not good.

Heinz Eder wrote:
If he is licenced by the german association, the german association gets the information to pay the fine, if he is registered with the german association, the association should have at least his data. I don't think that he would refuse it to be member of the german association, if the association wouldn't ask a membership fee from him, so it shouldn't be the real problem.

And if he is not a member of our association ?

Heinz Eder wrote:All those players who are not germans and have a passport from a country, where no official association is existing have to ask FISTF for a licence. So the turkish player would have to request an individual licence from FISTF, which would make it clear that he only can qualify for a WC if he is in the top 16, because without an association the player can't represent the country.

And what about the fines for those players ? And what about players having two nationalities ?

Heinz Eder wrote:Generally I think it should be clear that every player with a german passport should be registered in the german association. If Rudi for an example wouldn't be ready to be licenced from the german association he couldn't play. If the german association only asks for membership fee if the players play individual competitions then it is up to the german federation to change its rules that players like Rudi could get a licence without paying full membership.

I disagree completely. My opinion is clear: a player should get a licence from the association he is member of. Regardless of his/her nationality.

For me the main question is: do we need an international licence system ?

Janus_Gersie wrote:For me the main question is: do we need an international licence system ?

No because we are much too small to get bothered by boring and heavy administrative duties.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
I don't see any sense in it. DSTFB should grant a licence to players who are germans by birth ? What about those germans living abroad ? What is the common thread ?

Shouldn't it be the goal of an association to be representative body of all players with the same nationality? So it should be the goal of an association on the other side, to know all active players with the nationality. If today anywhere in south america a german players registered in a tournament, the german association isn't aware of it. With a licencing system the player has to request a licence from the german association after he played his first tournament, so he will get in touch with you and you get in touch with the player.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
And what about those players having problems with their national association and therefore don't want to be member of that association ? The nationality association could use the licence system to put pressure on those players .... that's not good.

In such a case the player can ask a special licence by FISTF, but in general the players should be licenced by the association in their country. In such a case it is up to FISTF to check the situation in the association, why the player don't want to get a licence. In the end the perfect situation should be that FISTF gets more knowledge about its members.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
And what about the fines for those players ? And what about players having two nationalities ?

One more time, the association should have all datas of that player, if the player doesn't pay the association cancels the licence officially and the player can't play. Players with 2 nationalities can choose, like it is written down in the FISTF handbook. He can choose then he can change once with a break of 5 years (for WC) before playing for the association of his second nationality.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
I disagree completely. My opinion is clear: a player should get a licence from the association he is member of. Regardless of his/her nationality.
For me the main question is: do we need an international licence system ?

If we need it or not was not your question in the first thread. You wanted to know solutions for different situations, if you generally think we don't need it, we should discuss about the reasons, why you think that we don't need it.
In that case the discussion above is meaningless anyway, isn't it?

Heinz