Meeting in Palermo

What Capponi posted on the other forum. Any feedback and comments?

Hello everyone,
are the ideas I will present at the meeting of Palermo.
It is clear that they are making. These are just ideas, and would be delighted to hear your opinions.
A hug.
Piero

1) World Cup every 2 years
2) 5 Categories: Veterans, Open, Under 20, Under 15 & Ladies.
3) Veterans Category change to 45+ years old (Horta's System)
4) FISTF maximum Fees - Teams: Majors - 50 euro, GP/IO - 40 euro, Individuals: Majors - 20 euro (10 euro for FISTF), GP/IO - 15 euro (5 euro for FISTF)
5) Teams Competitions - For each game, teams may indicate 6 players and a maximum of 2 changes will be allowed at half time.
6) After 2012/2013, a minimum of 4 games for each player will be mandatory in FISTF competitions.
7) FISTF Tournaments - Individual competition on Saturday and Team competition on Sunday.
8. Every player must be registered in a National Association. No player will be allowed to play at any level if he/she doesn't be registered.
9) Full liberalization for foreign players after 2012/2023
10) FISTF Ranking - creation of a single ranking points structure for facilitating ranking's management.
11) Creation of a international refereeing's structure and a similiar structure for any national association. The members will not be FISTF members or member of any national association.
12) Creation of a Coach's Course after 2012/2013
13) The club who will organize Champions & Europa League will be allowed to participate even the club isn't elegible to play.
14) Propose Luis Horta as Vice President of Communication.

personal opinion

NO to

5) just strong teams will profit, weak teams will go down more than before, every mistake in the draw can be easily "repaired" in the halftime

9) i don't like the idea in (real) football and even less in tablesoccer...

11) fun idea but with that low amount of players not realistic, even more if players aren't allowed to referee and vice versa

12) whatever that is, i don't think that it wil lbe useful to all countries (different rules and regulations in every country/state)

1. No no no! I know open players (and probably veterans) don't care but it's another reason to kill the youth! I also read somewhere a WC every 2 years could be better organized. I believe it's a totally wrong argument.
2. A change that doesn't bring anything positive to the game so NO!
3. We push the problem as we did already when it was moved from 35 to 40 so NO!
4. I hope he's not talking about entry fees.. I don't understand what he means...
5. No opinion. I don't think it's a good idea because it doesn't bring anything positive to the game but I know some people take the sport so seriously they may be interest so... why not?
6. In theory a nice idea. But can we really count consolation games into the 4? Will we oblige organizers to have groups or 5 or 6? I have doubts...
7. No way. It should be the free choice of the organizer!
8. In theory yes but there are several issues: sometimes it doesn't match the rules of the natonal association (for instance in Belgium a player who is not a member of the association can play one tournament per season, even 2 if he has never been affiliated in the past.) Another issue: players of small nations. For instance a player from Luxemburg wants to play a tournament in Germany. So what? Another issue: for instance in France there is one player who lives at 200 km from the nearest club but he plays once a year in Belgium (10 km from his place) "just for fun". Should the belgian organizer refuse the guy to play because he's not part of any association? Bullshit! We already have so few players...
9. No idea what it means
10. No idea what it means -> Freddy should be the one to give feedback anyway.
11. Utopia
12. Utopia
13. In most cases the tournament is awarded to a country so how can you say which club has the wild card?

General comments: a lot of bullshit because it should be the job of a sports director to work on sports matters. Piero proves once again he doesn't know the history of FISTF, the problems of the field and the reality of other countries. Sports matters should be given to "REALLY ABLE" people such as Olivier Père and Heinz Eder (who can then make a team), not to clowns. Piero'sd better concentrate on negociating with Eurosport and Pirelli (lol).

Just my opinion though...

maxischn wrote:personal opinion

NO to

5) just strong teams will profit, weak teams will go down more than before, every mistake in the draw can be easily "repaired" in the halftime

9) i don't like the idea in (real) football and even less in tablesoccer...

11) fun idea but with that low amount of players not realistic, even more if players aren't allowed to referee and vice versa

12) whatever that is, i don't think that it wil lbe useful to all countries (different rules and regulations in every country/state)

Thanks for your feedback Markus. For point 9, do you think he means anyone can play in any team (for instance 4 foreign players in a team)? If it is the case, it's totally bullshit...

that's what i would understand by his words, no restriction of foreign players ....

if that's really the case, i will found a federation in uganda and play with other 5 austrians there and play every EC

1) World Cup every 2 years
2) 5 Categories: Veterans, Open, Under 20, Under 15 & Ladies.
3) Veterans Category change to 45+ years old (Horta's System)
4) FISTF maximum Fees - Teams: Majors - 50 euro, GP/IO - 40 euro, Individuals: Majors - 20 euro (10 euro for FISTF), GP/IO - 15 euro (5 euro for FISTF)
5) Teams Competitions - For each game, teams may indicate 6 players and a maximum of 2 changes will be allowed at half time.
6) After 2012/2013, a minimum of 4 games for each player will be mandatory in FISTF competitions.
7) FISTF Tournaments - Individual competition on Saturday and Team competition on Sunday.
8. Every player must be registered in a National Association. No player will be allowed to play at any level if he/she doesn't be registered.
9) Full liberalization for foreign players after 2012/2023
10) FISTF Ranking - creation of a single ranking points structure for facilitating ranking's management.
11) Creation of a international refereeing's structure and a similiar structure for any national association. The members will not be FISTF members or member of any national association.
12) Creation of a Coach's Course after 2012/2013
13) The club who will organize Champions & Europa League will be allowed to participate even the club isn't elegible to play.
14) Propose Luis Horta as Vice President of Communication.

1) Why that? I agree with Vincent's remarks to that point. A World Cup every second year would be much easier to accept for Open and Veteran players than for youth players. And as we can read elsewhere, one of our main problems is to get more youth players and to keep them motivated...

2) Main change is: the U12 would not exist any longer. Especially in World Cups I had seen too much pressure on the players built up from outside. But I had also seen many young players (which were too weak for the U15) having fun in this category...
But without an U12 every organizer is free to have a beginner tournament which is not strictly bound to age restrictions...
Turning the U19 into a U20 is ridicilous when we have World Cups only every second year. That would mean: Depending on their year of birth some players are allowed to play three World Cups (at the age of 16, 18, 20), others only two (17, 19)

3) In my personal opinion the age of 40 is far too young to turn people into 'veterans' ... but because of different age structures in different countires it could be quite risky to change the 'deadline'
Personally I would say 50 is far more appropriate...

4) I'm quite sure he's talking about entry fees. These numbers are absolutely ridiculous. But obviously FISTF's bank account is more than empty, otherwise they wouldn't try to raise the FISTF's part of the entry fees by 900% (0,50€ -> 5,00€)
Another thing I (already) totally disagree with is the entry fee for Major tournaments. They are obliged to pay prize money. Although the prize money shall be paid by sponsors this means nothing else than 'weaker players pay stronger players'. The money from sponsors should be used to let all the players play for free in first place. Then, if there's still some money left, why not having some prize money?

5) Maximilian Scheen aka Markus gave the perfect answer. This rule would be too much in favor of the already strong teams. This is a clear NO

6) This is at least a good try to step into the right direction. For some tournaments it may be difficult to be realized (Majors...) and many players may not accept consolation games as 'competitive' ... worth a try ...

7) Once again: I do prefer the team competition on Sunday, BUT this may lead to some big organisational problems for some tournaments as well. So this should be decided by the organizer, but FISTF's advice (and not more than that) is: individuals on Saturday, team on Sunday

8 ) Vincent's examples prove his experience in these matters. For everyone (especially for those who never played a tournament before) the step into the circuit should be as easy as possible.

9) @Vincent: it's plain simple: after 2012/13 even non-italian players are allowed to post their opinion in the SN-forum without being censored ...
I'm afraid that the meaning is different and Markus gave the correct interpretation. Another clear NO ...

10) @Vincent: I have an idea what it means ... The current ranking structure is too complicated to be handled by themselves, which means they need Freddy... Since they dislike the fact to depend on him they are looking for a simplified system which they can handle on their own

11) Honestly: where do they live? We struggle to find PLAYERS, how do they think we can find REFEREES? My proposal: a running text on the bottom of the screen on eurosport's live coverage from the World Cup:
'wanted: professional table soccer federation is looking for referees. contact refs@fistf.info'

12) Who will coach the future coaches? And who decides who is permitted to do so?

13) I like the idea. This may strengthen some clubs' motivation to hold the event...

14) Does that mean: election of the Vice President of Communication?

maxischn wrote:that's what i would understand by his words, no restriction of foreign players ....

if that's really the case, i will found a federation in uganda and play with other 5 austrians there and play every EC

I hardly believe they would allow a team from Uganda to take part in the EC as long as it is not formed by themselves...
You may try Moldova or Belarus to get permission...

Thank you, Marcus, for explaining almost perfect the point of view of DSTFB !

On this topic we can shorten our TelCo

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
1) World Cup every 2 years
Why that? I agree with Vincent's remarks to that point. A World Cup every second year would be much easier to accept for Open and Veteran players than for youth players. And as we can read elsewhere, one of our main problems is to get more youth players and to keep them motivated...

I honestly don't think that you don't keep young players motivated if they don't have the chance to be world champion every year.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
2) 5 Categories: Veterans, Open, Under 20, Under 15 & Ladies.
Main change is: the U12 would not exist any longer. Especially in World Cups I had seen too much pressure on the players built up from outside. But I had also seen many young players (which were too weak for the U15) having fun in this category...
But without an U12 every organizer is free to have a beginner tournament which is not strictly bound to age restrictions...
Turning the U19 into a U20 is ridicilous when we have World Cups only every second year. That would mean: Depending on their year of birth some players are allowed to play three World Cups (at the age of 16, 18, 20), others only two (17, 19)

The solution for that problem is quite simple, make a U21 instead of U20 and every player undependent of the year of birth can play 3 World Cups in that category.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
3) Veterans Category change to 45+ years old (Horta's System)
In my personal opinion the age of 40 is far too young to turn people into 'veterans' ... but because of different age structures in different countires it could be quite risky to change the 'deadline'
Personally I would say 50 is far more appropriate...

The problem with that change is that FISTF didn't take the right solution from the start and now people complain if they fall out again of the category or if they could play next season and then the age is changed, but generally I think 40 is too young.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
4) FISTF maximum Fees - Teams: Majors - 50 euro, GP/IO - 40 euro, Individuals: Majors - 20 euro (10 euro for FISTF), GP/IO - 15 euro (5 euro for FISTF)
I'm quite sure he's talking about entry fees. These numbers are absolutely ridiculous. But obviously FISTF's bank account is more than empty, otherwise they wouldn't try to raise the FISTF's part of the entry fees by 900% (0,50€ -> 5,00€)
Another thing I (already) totally disagree with is the entry fee for Major tournaments. They are obliged to pay prize money. Although the prize money shall be paid by sponsors this means nothing else than 'weaker players pay stronger players'. The money from sponsors should be used to let all the players play for free in first place. Then, if there's still some money left, why not having some prize money?

This proposal is real hard stuff, but would bring a lot of money to the organizers I agree that it would be good to know what FISTF would do with the about 20.000 EUR they would get. Maybe the players should pay the money, which should be paid by sponsors!?

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
5) Teams Competitions - For each game, teams may indicate 6 players and a maximum of 2 changes will be allowed at half time.
Maximilian Scheen aka Markus gave the perfect answer. This rule would be too much in favor of the already strong teams. This is a clear NO

I don't think like Markus and you, because I don't think that the really strong teams even would travel with 6 players if they could do 2 substitutions at half time, I think the middle and weak teams would prefer from that much more, so i think it wouldn't be a problem if this rule would be realized.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
6) After 2012/2013, a minimum of 4 games for each player will be mandatory in FISTF competitions.
This is at least a good try to step into the right direction. For some tournaments it may be difficult to be realized (Majors...) and many players may not accept consolation games as 'competitive' ... worth a try ...

Why would it be difficult to realize that in general? With the current system it would cause troubles but if you change the system the following way, it could be possible. At least groups of 4 AND all players from the group play barrage, instead of only the second if needed. Then all players could play at least 4 games and you even wouldn't need the consolation. Another consequence of that rule would be that categories should be only valid if there are 5 players (otherwise the players wouldn't get 4 games guarentee)

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
7) FISTF Tournaments - Individual competition on Saturday and Team competition on Sunday.
Once again: I do prefer the team competition on Sunday, BUT this may lead to some big organisational problems for some tournaments as well. So this should be decided by the organizer, but FISTF's advice (and not more than that) is: individuals on Saturday, team on Sunday

FISTF should be responsible for standards, the survey from Stefano had the result that it should depend on the organizer, but if FISTF wants a standard of organization, I wouldn't have a problem with that decision.
I also wouldn't have a problem if the organizer can decide about that.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Every player must be registered in a National Association. No player will be allowed to play at any level if he/she doesn't be registered.
Vincent's examples prove his experience in these matters. For everyone (especially for those who never played a tournament before) the step into the circuit should be as easy as possible.

This is a "hot" topic, in the last edition of the handbook which is not valid anymore in many points, this rule is written down, but I can understand the problem that players have to pay what associations ask that they could play FISTF events. Maybe this rule is for 1 or 2 associations important, but for the rest it only will bring problems, i fear.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
9) Full liberalization for foreign players after 2012/2023
@Vincent: it's plain simple: after 2012/13 even non-italian players are allowed to post their opinion in the SN-forum without being censored ...
I'm afraid that the meaning is different and Markus gave the correct interpretation. Another clear NO ...

I don't know but somebody wrote on the other forum it is maybe because of the EU law. I can only pray that this rule won't be realized, it would punish all clubs with a local touch, which would be a real loss for the table soccer.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
10) FISTF Ranking - creation of a single ranking points structure for facilitating ranking's management.
@Vincent: I have an idea what it means ... The current ranking structure is too complicated to be handled by themselves, which means they need Freddy... Since they dislike the fact to depend on him they are looking for a simplified system which they can handle on their own

no idea what that should mean in detail.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
11) Creation of a international refereeing's structure and a similiar structure for any national association. The members will not be FISTF members or member of any national association.
Honestly: where do they live? We struggle to find PLAYERS, how do they think we can find REFEREES? My proposal: a running text on the bottom of the screen on eurosport's live coverage from the World Cup:
'wanted: professional table soccer federation is looking for referees. contact refs@fistf.info'

A first step would be to install something like that at WC and maybe EC, it could save a lot of rounds and with that save the groups could be made bigger then. Laurent Garnier already had the possibility to use it, I mentioned it often that I never understood why he didn't do it at least in the knock-out rounds, he had a stuff of 16 referees.
The only thing I don't think that could be realized is that those people aren't even member of an association, but maybe my fantasy is not strong enough for that.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
12) Creation of a Coach's Course after 2012/2013
Who will coach the future coaches? And who decides who is permitted to do so?

Maybe I'm not enough fantast to imagine that, but if that would be realized it should be still ok.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
13) The club who will organize Champions & Europa League will be allowed to participate even the club isn't elegible to play.
I like the idea. This may strengthen some clubs' motivation to hold the event...

As far as I know the organizer is an association, the association can pass the organization to club but it is not a must, so I would prefer if the association can nominate one more club, if a club organizes the tournament, the association should be forced to give the ticket to that club.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
14) Propose Luis Horta as Vice President of Communication.
Does that mean: election of the Vice President of Communication?

The next invalid election!?? Piero only can coop Luis, but before he is doing that Mr. Rodriguez has to resign officially, because he actually was coopt for the communication director, as it seems giufaz wasn't consulted before piero decided to act that way. there is no election needed to apoint another communication director, except the whole board resigns and there have to be completely new elections, or some associations asked for another EGM and nobody is informed about it!?

John Lauder wrote this on the SN. Same thoughts that have been raised here for a longer time now. But although a chess-style (ELO and others) system would be perfect for this game, I can only see it as a utopia these FISTF days.

No 10: The single ranking points system is the most important for me.

It does not matter whether you set the veteran catergory at 25 or 55 if you are looking this way you are looking in the wrong direction.

We need a uniform ranking system. There is no need to have seperate ranking points for vets and open players. You can still be a vet but now there will only be one ranking table.

A uniformed ranking system would allow players to gain points in team events. I've always thought it unfair that we don't give ranking points to individual players for their games in team events. I have great sympathy every time I go to an International Grand prix and the Milano players often attend only the team event. I beleive they deserve points for their individual performance.

I also believe that for Majors only the top players should play for the main event. I can go to Mons and perhaps play Joe Misfud and Thierry Vivron in my group. I could play those two 100 times and I'm never going to beat them. Now I don't really care about that but it is a pointless exercise and a waste of time for all 3 of us. Lets get rid of the idiots like me and allow the top players to play against each other from the very start.

Another advantage is that top players will always referee top players!

Allow me to play in a "b" event against like minded people from the very beginning.

It will be much easier to organise.

With a uniform ranking system you can sort all the events into ABILITY catergories.
Perhaps the top 32 players in the open
and the top 20 players in the vets
We have the option of wild card entries if necessary

There will be more incentive to the ranking system.
It will give more incentive to weaker players to attend stronger events.

About the other points, I only comment two now.

1. Why not have the World Cup every year. But play every 2 years individual, every 2 years team? This has also been discussed a lot here a long time ago. This has more advantages than the other solutions (the proposed, and the current). More games for every player/team because it is played on two days. A real consolation tournament (a B-final in swimming style) would also be easy to arrange. It wopuld also make participating a lot more attractive (has been explained here many times) for people from outside Europe and smaller countries. And everyone travelling would get many games (no players travelling only for 2 team event games).

No one in SN has written about this possibility. I don't know if I should be surprised or not.

8 ) It's a ludicrous proposal, even as a proposal. It was discussed long an thoroughly regarding the Olympia CS matter (you can find those discussions on this forum). The variety of TF countries, and the inevitable problem of a "persona not grata" or a junta, is clearly not thought of.

About the ranking system i don't think there will be any perfect ranking system anyway. A tournament with only the Open category in Italy will never have the same "value" (in term of level of play) as a tournament in South Africa but as long as both events are "GPs" or "Opens", they should get the same points. Otherwise we dig the gap between bigger and smaller associations.

As for the world cup every 2 years, I have an idea: one year the FISTF WC, the next year the WASPA WC (only joking).

No news from the meeting?

Admin wrote:No news from the meeting?

Just wait patiently (about 2-3 months...)

Admin wrote:About the ranking system i don't think there will be any perfect ranking system anyway. A tournament with only the Open category in Italy will never have the same "value" (in term of level of play) as a tournament in South Africa but as long as both events are "GPs" or "Opens", they should get the same points. Otherwise we dig the gap between bigger and smaller associations.

True. Perfect is usually impossible, but at the moment it is quite far from perfect.

The development of the ranking system would require people with knowledge about the global game, statistic expertise and quite good mathematical skills. The "chess system" has many very different variations already, and new ones can be done also.

Piero Capponi wrote (on the italian forum):

Approfitto per comunicare che ho appena scritto la mia lettera di dimissioni da presidente FISTF che comunicherò in modo ufficiale domattina.

It means he's resigning.

Admin wrote:Piero Capponi wrote (on the italian forum):

Approfitto per comunicare che ho appena scritto la mia lettera di dimissioni da presidente FISTF che comunicherò in modo ufficiale domattina.

It means he's resigning.

Google Translator wrote:Take this opportunity to announce that I have just written my letter of resignation to President FISTF that I communicate in an official way tomorrow.

This came behind the tree, but maybe we are bit wiser tomorrow..

tomorrow? since when are they that fast to announce something? Meeting of the producers took 2 months


but i like this threat by SdF

"Le annunciate ma irricevibili dimissioni di Piero sono la conseguenza di comportamenti di persone che vanno assolutamente allontanate dal nostro mondo."

I guess some of us will have to say goodbye from this world

and it's funny to see that everyone is now celebrating the "comeback" of Subbuteo as Piero's company bought the rights from hasbro, but now he resigns as president.... i just wonder what will happen with the rights if there are the "wrong" people in a new BoD....

maxischn wrote:"Le annunciate ma irricevibili dimissioni di Piero sono la conseguenza di comportamenti di persone che vanno assolutamente allontanate dal nostro mondo."

I guess some of us will have to say goodbye from this world

Google wrote:Inadmissible, but the announced resignation of Piero are the consequence of behaviors of people that absolutely must be removed from our world

That's kinda harsh line and I hope that there will be more detailed information available for this. This can also mean people outside of TF world, so let's not make any quick conclusions..

it is a translator, so please let's stay in reality.
i think we all know what he means, but to put every single word on a weighing machine is bit too much in my opinion.

He neither speaks about killing somebody nore cleaing (in a racist way) our community, he only thinks that some people should be banned for their continously personal insults again other people.

Heinz

Kaitsu wrote:

maxischn wrote:"Le annunciate ma irricevibili dimissioni di Piero sono la conseguenza di comportamenti di persone che vanno assolutamente allontanate dal nostro mondo."

I guess some of us will have to say goodbye from this world

Google wrote:Inadmissible, but the announced resignation of Piero are the consequence of behaviors of people that absolutely must be removed from our world

That's kinda harsh line and I hope that there will be more detailed information available for this. This can also mean people outside of TF world, so let's not make any quick conclusions..

the wrong people?
Do we have so many left who want to do that job, after seeing what happened the last 1,5 years?
What should be clear is that we can't go back to january 2010, so I'm curious to see the new candidate, and again we will have an EGM, let's see when it will have an end.
again we don't have statutes and again we will have the same problems like we had from januiary till now. Those who will be involved again I wish all the best, I'm tired to write the same things every 4 or 5 months.

Heinz

maxischn wrote:tomorrow? since when are they that fast to announce something? Meeting of the producers took 2 months


but i like this threat by SdF

"Le annunciate ma irricevibili dimissioni di Piero sono la conseguenza di comportamenti di persone che vanno assolutamente allontanate dal nostro mondo."

I guess some of us will have to say goodbye from this world

and it's funny to see that everyone is now celebrating the "comeback" of Subbuteo as Piero's company bought the rights from hasbro, but now he resigns as president.... i just wonder what will happen with the rights if there are the "wrong" people in a new BoD....

I thought, Piero´s resign is the logical consequence out of the fact Total Soccer is now owner of the Subbuteo rights...

i dare to say that everyone from the "north" will be one of the "wrong" people - if there is some candidate left is another question.... nothing will change again, FISTF has been killed finally, they celebrate them as the great winners and leave back some ruins

well yeah, at least some people used their position properly now and own important rights and can earn some money

I didn't know that you have to be FISTF president to have the right to buy the name and rights of subbuteo!?

not everyone, but some people are out because of their reaction after madrid and several other actions, so good luck to everyone who have to find a candidate who will be accepted at least by countries from "both" sides.
the situation isn't easier than before at least but it is meaningless to discuss about responsibilities for that.

maxischn wrote:i dare to say that everyone from the "north" will be one of the "wrong" people - if there is some candidate left is another question.... nothing will change again, FISTF has been killed finally, they celebrate them as the great winners and leave back some ruins

well yeah, at least some people used their position properly now and own important rights and can earn some money