Re: Madrid, 02/11

Janus_Gersie Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:56 pm

maxischn wrote:the situation would be way more easier if there were at least 1 italian candidate or even another one from spain - noone would say anything against it ...

Totally agreed ! This would make the whole situation more easy !

Janus

kechris Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:02 pm

Ι read your posts the last days but i didn't write my comments.

I am happy and unhappy. How is it possible?

BECAUSE I SAW THE FUTURE MANY TIME BEFORE...

**Admin** Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:03 pm

Giufaz, there is no list of "persona non grata". The only thing that has been written is that I (and this is at personal level) will not be involved in the FISTF Board if some people are elected. I don't want to work with people who, one year ago, caused the biggest sabotage in FISTF history, destroyed 7 years of work, didn't show any respect for those who worked for 7 years, didn't try any form of compromise,... now that everybody is aware that these people failed and that they didn't do anything positive in one year (some were good enough to admit it and retired like Piero and Stefano, some are just sticking to power and don't understand what they have done like Catania, Koutromanos, the last one is Garnier who is doing absolutely nothing but who is always thinking he's the voice of wisdom of FISTF... as long as it sticks to his own interests...). So my (very personal) conclusion is that I don't want to work with Koutromanos, Catania, Capponi, De Francesco and garnier because I don't forgive them the way they have humiliated me last year. Maybe my attitude is selfish but I just believe these people don't deserve any respect from our community because of all the pain of the last 12 months.

Lorenzo Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:58 pm

Admin wrote:my (very personal) conclusion is that I don't want to work with Koutromanos, Catania, Capponi, De Francesco and garnier because I don't forgive them the way they have humiliated me last year.

Vincent, you previously stated you were looking for an arrangement... I just emailed you a proposal from Stefano de Francesco. It is not intended to be his last word, but rather the basis for a negotiation.

Let's try to be constructive and look to the future instead of remaining focused on the past.

I still hope that you will take it into consideration, and eventually formulate a counterproposal.

**Admin** Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:09 pm

The past is the past. But in many countries, when someone commits a crime and it is discovered only years later, it doesn't remain unpunished!

zinga Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:28 pm

I just sent the Finnish votes for the EGM elections. The estimated post delivery time to Madrid is two days so our votes should arrive in time. Too sad that the candidate list was lacking.

Lets hope that the elections go through in good spirits!

Guest Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:29 pm

drastis wrote:

Giufaz, I would like to ask some questions and have some honest answers. Here I am, answers below. I give you my personal opinion: as I said many times I'm not representing anybody. I hope my involvement will terminate next Saturday: too much litigation and polemics for Table Soccer.

1. Do you really believe that NOT EVEN ONE person from Italy, Spain or Malta is willing to go for a FISTF BoD post? Or is it an orchestrated reaction aiming to put pressure or create surprise? I'm sure that there are persons that would like to participate even if I read them only in forum. From Italian forum I understood that Stefano De Francesco was available at the beginning as choosen by Italian Federation. So Piero Capponi from Spanish one. Both of them got a big consensus in the Italian forum even from people that usually are considered as "enemies", given the need to go ahead. I think that in Italy and Spain people really cares for having its representatives and don't like a split option. However people don't like that other Countries sindacate the choice done in Italy saying (as for instance Thossa in many post) that the choice is wrong and the Country should look for another candidate. Personally I have not opinion on Stefano De Francesco as politician (I was only the referee in some mach he played in some tournement and he was correct...nothing more) but in principle I understand people became upset if a Country cannot to decide its candidates. For Malta I don't know the position but I can imagine that Silvio Catania could like be a candidate as people in Malta like him. The problem is that on those names there is a veto from the other side, even if those countries have togheter many hundred players. And I didn't understand if people that put a veto is ready to go a step back (if, as answer, the other Countries put a veto on their names).
2. Given the fact that people around the World do not speak Italian, is it normal for Italians to discuss FISTF matters only on Italian Forum? There is a problem of language and of trust. Some Italian don't speak English. Some intervened and were offended (I don't know if for good or bad reasons). And to partecipate to the forum, unofficial channel of communication, is only on volontary basis.
3. Do you think it's normal for an election procedure to proceed without announcing candidacies until the very last minute? I don't think it is normal. The statute should be amended in order to anticipate the deadline and promote cooperation with the creation of opposite lists (it is democracy). In order to amend the situation the full consensus of parties is really needed
4. Why should I believe that a person really wants compromise when this very person has never answered any of the personal messages I send to him? I cannot answer properly as I don't know why this person in not answering. I can only say that compromise is compromise...very different from victory. In compromise both parties loose something. And they do it as they know that the real risk is to loose even much more in a war...
Thanks

Best

Guest Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:33 pm

Admin wrote:Giufaz, there is no list of "persona non grata". The only thing that has been written is that I (and this is at personal level) will not be involved in the FISTF Board if some people are elected. I don't want to work with people who, one year ago, caused the biggest sabotage in FISTF history, destroyed 7 years of work, didn't show any respect for those who worked for 7 years, didn't try any form of compromise,... now that everybody is aware that these people failed and that they didn't do anything positive in one year (some were good enough to admit it and retired like Piero and Stefano, some are just sticking to power and don't understand what they have done like Catania, Koutromanos, the last one is Garnier who is doing absolutely nothing but who is always thinking he's the voice of wisdom of FISTF... as long as it sticks to his own interests...). So my (very personal) conclusion is that I don't want to work with Koutromanos, Catania, Capponi, De Francesco and garnier because I don't forgive them the way they have humiliated me last year. Maybe my attitude is selfish but I just believe these people don't deserve any respect from our community because of all the pain of the last 12 months.

I understand your position. I saw that Capponi and De Francesco said that there cannot be a board without you and they will not work in a board without Coppenolle.
Without a waiver of the reciprocal veto (your toward them and for them to don't work without you) I guess that there is no hope of having a board with the people that can better help fistf and represent the various souls of the movement...

**Admin** Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:16 pm

CIRCULAR0062 23st February 2011

To: All Presidents
All Nations

As General Secretary I have received a SMS from the President Silvio Catania who inform me that he will not come to Madrid.

In that case I have to take the decision to organize the AGM. I have heard lot of things and I want just confirm some points about law.

- The statuts use will be the original one aprouved in 1994
The President and the Vice-Presidents and the General Secretary may not belong to the same National Association and have the same nationality.
- I totally agree to give the opportunity to all off the nations to take part to the vote.
- I will try to offer the best solution to give a clear transparent vote.

I would like to propose a real way for all missing nations to vote in a real and proper way direct with the General Secretary Mr Laurent Garnier via Lauren’s Mobile phone.

According to our rules a person can present themselves before the AGM takes place to stand for a job on the FISTF board.

Bearing this in mind we would like all National Federation chairmen to pass on there full phone number or mobile number or skype contact so we at FISTF Can allow you to vote for the person you wish in a more direct way and Private direct in to the AGM where all nations will be present.

If you would like this option then please send your contact details back direct to the FISTF general Secretary so we can make sure we do not miss your votes each session live on Saturday morning in Madrid.

Should you like this more direct way FISTF will contact before 12 am on Saturday Morning to collect your private vote via phone or skype .

Mobile phone : +33 (0)6 07 45 59 88

Skype : laurent85garnier

e.mail : laurentgarnier@atenaconcept.com

You’ll find the list of nations who are members of FISTF.

List of countries members of FISTF :

Argentina
Austria
Belgium
England
Finland
France
Germany
Gibraltar
Greece
Holland
Italy
Monaco
Malta
Portugal
Spain
Wales

I stay in your listening

Laurent GARNIER
General Secretary

Guest Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:32 pm

We have exceeded all limits. We are mad.

Luis Filipe Horta Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:34 pm

pierocapponi wrote:We have exceeded all limits. We are mad.

What is so wrong in the Circular #62 ?

Guest Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:41 pm

Luis is a joke please?

Where is it written that the Secretary may decide to use the statutes of 1994 to hold a congress in 2011? Why not choose the Secretary and a Vice President? What makes the laws?

And on the secret ballot? And regarding people who bought a plane ticket to come and discuss and vote?

And why not use the statutes of the International Federation of Subbuteo?

This is unbelievable.

Luis Filipe Horta Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:52 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Luis is a joke please?

Where is it written that the Secretary may decide to use the statutes of 1994 to hold a congress in 2011? Why not choose the Secretary and a Vice President? What makes the laws?

And on the secret ballot? And regarding people who bought a plane ticket to come and discuss and vote?

And why not use the statutes of the International Federation of Subbuteo?

This is unbelievable.

Piero,
Shouldn't be the Congress to decide about that ?
Shouldn't all nations be allowed to vote anyway?
Who are afraid of the vote of the majority ?

I agree we didn't need another problem (regarding circular #62), now that appears we had "white smoke" and an agreement would be possible between almost every nation, but we don't need also a problem with the EGM venue also.
Please think again and be more pacient.
Let the Congress decides the way.

Guest Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:01 am

Of course, deciding the Congress, not the Secretary General who has been missing 10 months.

The room is rented, the Congress is organized. I'm not going to be. But not a big problem.

I feel sorry for people who have paid a plane.

We have two lawyers who have studied the statutes of 2004 and came to help to avoid problems. All useless.

Long experience gives me the same thing wins. It will not change anything. Continue to be a game played by 4 starving.

Luis hug.

Good Night and Good Luck.

**Admin** Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:02 am

Excepted it's coming far too late, Laurent Garnier is right for many points!

Guest Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:08 am

Vincent, please ... you are only agreed because it allows people who are not interested at all in the future of FISTF vote by phone.

Sounds good to me. I repeat anything I do not care who wins.

But a federation which stops its charter as a function of the moods of its directors has no future. No future.

You know that anyone can use and report it illegal for any board to be elected?

We're a band of fans.

Good night, Vincent, and hug your family. You have a very handsome son, I saw the photos on facebook.

A hug.

Piero

Guest Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:51 am

pierocapponi wrote:Luis is a joke please?

Where is it written that the Secretary may decide to use the statutes of 1994 to hold a congress in 2011? Why not choose the Secretary and a Vice President? What makes the laws?

And on the secret ballot? And regarding people who bought a plane ticket to come and discuss and vote?

And why not use the statutes of the International Federation of Subbuteo?

This is unbelievable.

The existing statute don't give any power to the secretary to manage a congress (should be the eldest person of the board)...and only a congress can decide to make as valid a previous version of the statute...
The 1994 statute don'permit vote by phone. And no known statute permit it (only in some case it is possible by conference call but if permitted by the statute and with certified system).
However, guys, I understand that you don't care very much for law... And at the moment the credibility of this federation is founded on caprice of people.
I hope that when you will discover that some law exist you will decide to apply it by yourselves and you don't need a lawyer.
Concerning myself, I already spent too much time in this, thinking it was something serious.
My mistake.
Good luck for people going to Madrid and good luck for your games and your new federation.

alex popoff Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:01 am

giufaz wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:Luis is a joke please?

Where is it written that the Secretary may decide to use the statutes of 1994 to hold a congress in 2011? Why not choose the Secretary and a Vice President? What makes the laws?

And on the secret ballot? And regarding people who bought a plane ticket to come and discuss and vote?

And why not use the statutes of the International Federation of Subbuteo?

This is unbelievable.

The existing statute don't give any power to the secretary to manage a congress (should be the eldest person of the board)...and only a congress can decide to make as valid a previous version of the statute...
The 1994 statute don'permit vote by phone. And no known statute permit it (only in some case it is possible by conference call but if permitted by the statute and with certified system).
However, guys, I understand that you don't care very much for law... And at the moment the credibility of this federation is founded on caprice of people.
I hope that when you will discover that some law exist you will decide to apply it by yourselves and you don't need a lawyer.
Concerning myself, I already spent too much time in this, thinking it was something serious.
My mistake.
Good luck for people going to Madrid and good luck for your games and your new federation.

Bye Bye my friend and thank you !

von K. Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:02 am

A word of warning. You can get offended if you find yourself described below. But you shouldn't, you should take notice. And I mean people from both blocks.

This is getting out of hand and completely ridiculous. I have worked with small schoolchildren as profession for many years, and quite frankly, they have better solutions in case of different opinions and quarrels than many people in this mess.

This is like a big sandbox. All this nonsense, arrogance and lack of will to understand others and find compromises I see in both forums written by persons from both blocks makes me physically sick to my stomach.

Wake up people, act your age! You are adults for crying out loud!

I received a personal message yesterday evening from Giorgos Koutis. He wrote the following "Good luck for our hobby in Madrid."

I'm sorry Giorgos, to write about your pm here. But for me this was extremely significant. Most of the egomaniacs have forgot the players who don't want to lose their hobby. I personally would never talk to a person again, if in my association in any hobby he would contribute for the destruction of my hobby. I'm sure there are many others out there, too, who will watch news from Madrid being concerned about their hobby.

Just like Heinz wrote, don't play poker with people's hobbies!

Heinz Eder wrote:
Maybe we need some other drop outs like Austria or Finland who maybe don't want to choose a "block" built by some people who can't talk with each other.

Heinz, you wrote very important things also otherwise in your recent posts. If I were in a joking mood I would suggest creating a third federation for the countries with ability to compromise and communicate.

Instead I made a proposal based on the attitude of the countries you mention above. It's in a new topic and if it catches enough positive feedback it will be forwarded to the nations. It is unorthodox and it will be against the statutes, but if people with the nation's power really care for FISTF, they are willing to give alternatives (anyone can create a better one if that is not good) a chance. If they don't care, then I'm sorry for them and their nation's players.

alex popoff Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:05 am

Admin wrote:
CIRCULAR0062 23st February 2011

To: All Presidents
All Nations

As General Secretary I have received a SMS from the President Silvio Catania who inform me that he will not come to Madrid.

In that case I have to take the decision to organize the AGM. I have heard lot of things and I want just confirm some points about law.

- The statuts use will be the original one aprouved in 1994
The President and the Vice-Presidents and the General Secretary may not belong to the same National Association and have the same nationality.
- I totally agree to give the opportunity to all off the nations to take part to the vote.
- I will try to offer the best solution to give a clear transparent vote.

I would like to propose a real way for all missing nations to vote in a real and proper way direct with the General Secretary Mr Laurent Garnier via Lauren’s Mobile phone.

According to our rules a person can present themselves before the AGM takes place to stand for a job on the FISTF board.

Bearing this in mind we would like all National Federation chairmen to pass on there full phone number or mobile number or skype contact so we at FISTF Can allow you to vote for the person you wish in a more direct way and Private direct in to the AGM where all nations will be present.

If you would like this option then please send your contact details back direct to the FISTF general Secretary so we can make sure we do not miss your votes each session live on Saturday morning in Madrid.

Should you like this more direct way FISTF will contact before 12 am on Saturday Morning to collect your private vote via phone or skype .

Mobile phone : +33 (0)6 07 45 59 88

Skype : laurent85garnier

e.mail : laurentgarnier@atenaconcept.com

You’ll find the list of nations who are members of FISTF.

List of countries members of FISTF :

Argentina
Austria
Belgium
England
Finland
France
Germany
Gibraltar
Greece
Holland
Italy
Monaco
Malta
Portugal
Spain
Wales

I stay in your listening

Laurent GARNIER
General Secretary

That's fair and democratic ! Good news !

alex popoff Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:17 am

Admin wrote:Excepted it's coming far too late, Laurent Garnier is right for many points!

Finally we'll have a correct voting ceremony !

alex popoff Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:27 am

pierocapponi wrote:Of course, deciding the Congress, not the Secretary General who has been missing 10 months.

The room is rented, the Congress is organized. I'm not going to be. But not a big problem.

I feel sorry for people who have paid a plane.

We have two lawyers who have studied the statutes of 2004 and came to help to avoid problems. All useless.

Long experience gives me the same thing wins. It will not change anything. Continue to be a game played by 4 starving.

Luis hug.

Good Night and Good Luck.

Sorry I don't understand some points :
- what do you mean " I'm not going to be " ? You or Catania ?
- "I feel sorry for people who have paid a plane" ... why ? the ceremony is not canceled !

zinga Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:24 am

giufaz wrote:The existing statute don't give any power to the secretary to manage a congress (should be the eldest person of the board)...and only a congress can decide to make as valid a previous version of the statute...
The 1994 statute don'permit vote by phone. And no known statute permit it (only in some case it is possible by conference call but if permitted by the statute and with certified system).
However, guys, I understand that you don't care very much for law... And at the moment the credibility of this federation is founded on caprice of people.

I support the use of the statutes. However, I also understand the need of a common sense when trying to solve the current FISTF crisis.

I would use the voting procedure proposed in the circular 62 only if the EGM decides that the procedure is ok. I assume that the EGM have powers to make that decision.

And while we are talking about statutes I would like to remind that the current ("provisional", "illegal" etc.) BoD was voted totally against the statutes (open e-mail votes for blocks). Still, all the lawyers seem to accept that it is not possible to announce the BoD invalid. Thus, if the same logic applies, we can vote in the EGM however we decide, and be sure that the voted BoD is valid. Again, however, I repeat that I would first try to vote on the basis of the statutes.

alex popoff Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:55 am

zinga wrote:
giufaz wrote:The existing statute don't give any power to the secretary to manage a congress (should be the eldest person of the board)...and only a congress can decide to make as valid a previous version of the statute...
The 1994 statute don'permit vote by phone. And no known statute permit it (only in some case it is possible by conference call but if permitted by the statute and with certified system).
However, guys, I understand that you don't care very much for law... And at the moment the credibility of this federation is founded on caprice of people.
I support the use of the statutes. However, I also understand the need of a common sense when trying to solve the current FISTF crisis.

I would use the voting procedure proposed in the circular 62 only if the EGM decides that the procedure is ok. I assume that the EGM have powers to make that decision.

And while we are talking about statutes I would like to remind that the current ("provisional", "illegal" etc.) BoD was voted totally against the statutes (open e-mail votes for blocks). Still, all the lawyers seem to accept that it is not possible to announce the BoD invalid. Thus, if the same logic applies, we can vote in the EGM however we decide, and be sure that the voted BoD is valid. Again, however, I repeat that I would first try to vote on the basis of the statutes.

You are right Zinga !
I want to notice that it's the members of the association who wrotes the statutes in 1994 (and not the French Governement as some persons thought), and it's the right to those members to change them when they want, from the moment the majority agree ! That's the spirit of an "association under the french law 1901".
I hope everybody will accept to give a maximum chances to all Nations to vote in the goal to respect democracy and to help the FISTF !

Guest Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:35 am

alex popoff wrote:
I want to notice that it's the members of the association who wrotes the statutes in 1994 (and not the French Governement as some persons thought), and it's the right to those members to change them when they want, from the moment the majority agree ! That's the spirit of an "association under the french law 1901".
I hope everybody will accept to give a maximum chances to all Nations to vote in the goal to respect democracy and to help the FISTF !

Alex, there is a procedure to do it: a congress must be called on the specific topic, the majority has to vote (according to procedures in the statute). If the amendment to the statute is not in the agenda or you prefer to ignore the existing Statute, you would need the unanimity of members to deci (also outside the meeting (not only present, not only the founders). And this according to French law.
This of course in French law... You are however free to create a free kingdom with the rules you prefer and to say anybody that you are applying French law. Maybe somebody can be belive it.
I hope people will find a solution in the interest of FISTF as the only hope now is that people agree (unanimousely)in this informal meeting. Otherwise all the Members that don't agree will have the right to claim against the decision.
I stop watching your replies and this forum: I intervened only to help with law and in this moment law is not of interest.
For personal opinion I prefer Italian forum: who needs can contact me there.
Best

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