Madrid, 02/11

giufaz wrote:

von K. wrote:

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:

giufaz wrote:Of corse possibile, if the statute is changed.
Unfortunatelly to keep the meeting via videoconferenza we need an amendment to the statute.
Not possibile for Madrid.
Best

Are there anything in the Statutes about it is mandatory everybody who attend the EGM must be phisically in the same place ? I believe not.

The same thing came to my mind, and I checked. The Statutes say nothing about a congress being held at one physical location. It could be done as a video conference, without any one location, according to the statutes.

Sorry Von K., it is not like this: the way a meeting should be held must be indicated in the statute.
We can have a virtual meeting only if expressly stated in the statute.
Just to confirm this, the chance of having meetings via electronic way was recognized by European Law (and, consequently, European Countries) only after year 2000. And it was made possible to exercise this chance only if the statute would have previewed this.
The FISTF statute doesn't permit this and therefore it could be possible to connect via videoconference only with the consent of all Members (difficult to imagine, given the situation). Or changing the Statute.
In order to be sure, I also checked the French law of 1901 (as updated and amended) and it doesn't give any general permission of helding meetings via videoconference.
I repeat: we need to amend the statute.
Best

Sorry to tell you that, but you put to much confusion in the mind of everybody with law you don't know ! We are no in Italy and also we don't use the same law as French companies !!!
In the case of an "association 1901" you can do everything you want from the moment the majority agreed ! You do a vote just before starting the elections vote and if 51% say "Yes" you can do it !
You also can change the number of years the new President will be elected, the number of persons in the Board, etc ...
The only things the State don't agree is Racism, Discrimination, Terorism ideologie, Religious fanatism, etc ...
Videoconference is permitted if we want ! The system of vote like the one we use during the CoN by mail was efficient to take that kind of decisions before the elections !

von K. wrote:Ok, that's clear. It's just impossible to know all the details that have to be thought of, that are not necessarily in the statutes (you mentioned the European Law). I don't think FISTF has ever had to think things like this before. So it's obvious that many people are a little confused. I just read the statutes and make conclusions from there (not mentioned a physical place, because it seems to be the norm in the eyes of the law).

Thanks again for the clarification. You spending time for answering is really appreciated.

The statutes need a lot of work.

Just to inform you : you don't need to be a lawyer, to write or create Statutes in the case of an association 1901 like FISTF.
It exist millions of associations 1901 in France and a lot have different statutes. Some of them don't have even a Board, and others have a President for life !!! The Governement consider that from the moment 2 persons or more agreed on one way to run their association (based on general rules of French Republic) it's not a problem for him !

alex popoff wrote:

Sorry to tell you that, but you put to much confusion in the mind of everybody with law you don't know ! We are no in Italy and also we don't use the same law as French companies !!!
In the case of an "association 1901" you can do everything you want from the moment the majority agreed ! You do a vote just before starting the elections vote and if 51% say "Yes" you can do it !
You also can change the number of years the new President will be elected, the number of persons in the Board, etc ...
The only things the State don't agree is Racism, Discrimination, Terorism ideologie, Religious fanatism, etc ...
Videoconference is permitted if we want ! The system of vote like the one we use during the CoN by mail was efficient to take that kind of decisions before the elections !

Alex, Italian law on association is derived from France one...all the sport associations in the world are inspired to the same principles...and my French friends and colleagues, with the statute we have, share my point of view.
In order to amend a Statute you need to call the meeting with this purpose (otherwise people will claim as they didn't come to the meeting as they didn't know your intention of changing the statute).
Furthermore, you can have a meeting via videoconf if your system is certified and it is permitted by the statute before the meeting. If not, nothing wrong in continuing with the old democratic rules where always used.
The reason the statute is so important (also in French law of 1901) is that this is the regulations members wish to follow and to amend it they must agree.
However I carefully read your intervention but I still didn't understand if you are a lawyer and your arguments are a legal opinion.
As I have a purely cultural interest in the discussion maybe it is a mistake I continue to discuss.
An old principle for lawyers state that when you give opinions for free your client will not bealive you and he will be satisfied only when he will find somebody who make him pay.
Following this principles I leave you the role of legal advisor for courious people.
Of course I'm available via mp for people who still have doubts after you give a clear advice on various situations.
Best

Guifaz you have tottaly wrong.
Because if the meetings must be in physical place THEN all the decisions (circulars, elections etc) are ILLEGAL.
All decisions been with e-mails or by telephone calls. And the discilplinary council took decisions with ILLEGAL way (your opinion)
So please stop looking for problems but for solutions. Video conference or something like this is the ONLY SOLUTION.
SOLUTION for the future. If we want democracy in table soccer. No democracy only for the people who can spend money and time to go to Madrid. I am working, i have family, and i haven't 500e because few persons want to take decisions alone without all countries to be present.

REDICOLUS

You are totally right, Kostas.

kechris wrote:Guifaz you have tottaly wrong.
Because if the meetings must be in physical place THEN all the decisions (circulars, elections etc) are ILLEGAL.
All decisions been with e-mails or by telephone calls. And the discilplinary council took decisions with ILLEGAL way (your opinion)
So please stop looking for problems but for solutions. Video conference or something like this is the ONLY SOLUTION.
SOLUTION for the future. If we want democracy in table soccer. No democracy only for the people who can spend money and time to go to Madrid. I am working, i have family, and i haven't 500e because few persons want to take decisions alone without all countries to be present.

REDICOLUS

Kechris, one think is the BoD and another the congress (that in theory should be done once every 4 years).
Solution is simple: change the statute and preview the meeting of the congress via videoconf.
Or ask for the consent of all the other countries to have the meeting via videoconf...
And set a good system for have meetings via videoconf (skype in theory is not sufficient: can be hacked too easily).
And in both cases, avoid to become offensive.
Or, if you prefer, continue to torture the law. You will see that at the end it will confess...

giufaz wrote:


Alex, Italian law on association is derived from France one...all the sport associations in the world are inspired to the same principles...and my French friends and colleagues, with the statute we have, share my point of view.

In order to amend a Statute you need to call the meeting with this purpose (otherwise people will claim as they didn't come to the meeting as they didn't know your intention of changing the statute).

You read to much books but have you ever assisted in france to elections (assemblée genérale, assemblée extraordinaire, assemblée statutaire) ??? Me yes and every year !

Furthermore, you can have a meeting via videoconf if your system is certified and it is permitted by the statute before the meeting. If not, nothing wrong in continuing with the old democratic rules where always used.

Once again you read to much books ... and you don't know the actual situation (we don't know for who to vote and not even have an adress to send the letters ... and not an official Board)

The reason the statute is so important (also in French law of 1901) is that this is the regulations members wish to follow and to amend it they must agree.

Since the beggining of that provisionnal Board the Statutes are not respected by them : No elections, No Congress ... and they registered that Board for 4 years to the Prefecture of Vendée ...

However I carefully read your intervention but I still didn't understand if you are a lawyer and your arguments are a legal opinion.

I'm not a lawyer like 100% of the Presidents of the Member Nations, but I put all my energy and knowledge of French rules to help the International community of Table soccer to not be manipulated by persons who wants only power, tittles and money !

As I have a purely cultural interest in the discussion maybe it is a mistake I continue to discuss.
An old principle for lawyers state that when you give opinions for free your client will not bealive you and he will be satisfied only when he will find somebody who make him pay.

As some persons tell you before, we appreciate your help but personnaly I tell you that you put to much confusion (because you are not aware of the real situation, and you try to learn one part of the french law which is not your daily work) in a period were we don't have time to explain at everybody what's wrong, what's right ...

Following this principles I leave you the role of legal advisor for courious people.
Of course I'm available via mp for people who still have doubts after you give a clear advice on various situations.

You are free to write and express your opinion on this forum as everybody and it's not because I tell you my opinion that you have to stop !
Regards

I asked those questions some days ago, but NO ANSWER!!!

Piero, as the organiser of the EGM, can you please put an end to this disgrace?

We all know that there is a dirty game played by some people, who are going to announce their opinions and true intentions only in the last minute.

This is NOT democracy! If you want to make an election try to be a bit democrat, else you don't need elections, you need a dictator and some watchdogs around him.

Is this what we deserve?

drastis wrote:Only a week to go for the election and everything is in the air.

What is the agenda?
Who are candidates?
Which countries have the right to vote?
When is the deadline for sending a candidature?
Is postal vote accepted?
Are delegates accepted?
Who is going to chair the Congress?

As I am a candidate, I would like to particiapte, but who can ensure that I will be allowed to participate? Whose task is to inform people properly?? PLEASE, give us a break!!

George, this is exactly what I fear what was going to happen. A dirty game. There is no other word...

It's amazing many things are published on the italian forum and nobody is able to give answers on this forum...

drastis wrote:I asked those questions some days ago, but NO ANSWER!!!

Piero, as the organiser of the EGM, can you please put an end to this disgrace?

We all know that there is a dirty game played by some people, who are going to announce their opinions and true intentions only in the last minute.

This is NOT democracy! If you want to make an election try to be a bit democrat, else you don't need elections, you need a dictator and some watchdogs around him.

Is this what we deserve?

drastis wrote:Only a week to go for the election and everything is in the air.

What is the agenda?
Who are candidates?
Which countries have the right to vote?
When is the deadline for sending a candidature?
Is postal vote accepted?
Are delegates accepted?
Who is going to chair the Congress?

As I am a candidate, I would like to particiapte, but who can ensure that I will be allowed to participate? Whose task is to inform people properly?? PLEASE, give us a break!!

Incredible ....

George, I am not President FISTF.

I just take care of the logistics (room, coffee break, etc.). I am neither candidate.

Interestingly, in addition, there are candidates who do not come to the reunion and has the courage to complain .

I'm so tired of hearing intervention of this kind.

Piero

Admin wrote:George, this is exactly what I fear what was going to happen. A dirty game. There is no other word...

It's amazing many things are published on the italian forum and nobody is able to give answers on this forum...

Does the italian forum has answers ? I am convinced they don't have ....

haha i like the last "newsletter" especially the part with

"According to our statutes, those approved in 2004 any person can candidate itself till the very last minute before the elections."

Will be funny to see who will stand up as a last-minute candidate

pierocapponi wrote:
Interestingly, in addition, there are candidates who do not come to the reunion and has the courage to complain .

Piero if you mean me, you are terribly wrong. I wanted to come to Madrid, but until now there is no official information about the Gongress, I don't know even if my country has the right to be represented and vote in Madrid. Anyway, I am candidate because I want to help FISTF, not because I want to be involved in political games like the one played by some countries and I think you know what I mean.

You also know I respect you and your efforts, but there is something here that smells. I don't believe you feel confident organising a congress which has no published agenda and actually no one really knows who has the right to participate. So, please let me have my reservations about the true intentions of some people.

maxischn wrote:haha i like the last "newsletter" especially the part with

"According to our statutes, those approved in 2004 any person can candidate itself till the very last minute before the elections."

Will be funny to see who will stand up as a last-minute candidate

Could someone please pass me this "newsletter" to my job mail-address (the new one of the last weeks) or publish it here. I am in Istanbul right now with limited access to my private mail account.

Thank you!

ΤHe Greek provisional had a meeting before few hours.
We discuss for the greek league for teams and for the next elections .
The provisional BoD took the decision with 3-2 votes that i will be president of PATFAP until elections and i will THE ONLY responsible to vote in FiSTF elections.
The two members who had different opinion refused to put his signature but we have official receipts now.
SO PLEASE SEND IN MY MAIL ALL INFORMATIONS FOR ELECTIONS IN TIME.

Thank you.

CIRCULAR0061 21st February 2011


To: All Presidents
All Nations


Dear All,

Extraordinary General Meeting


Following the call for nominations for the Board of Directors for the elections to be held on Saturday 26th February 2011 in Madrid, may I inform you that nominations submitted by email are as follows:

Role Name Country
President JURIK Markus Austria
President COLLINS Alan England
President KOUVONKORPI Vesa Finland
General Secretary GARNIER Laurent France
General Secretary DRAZINAKIS Georgios Greece
Marketing KOUTROUMANOS Leonidas Greece
Sports COPPENOLLE Vincent Belgium
Communications COPPENOLLE Vincent Belgium
Communications KOUTROUMANOS Leonidas Greece
Finance VULPES Fred Germany

According to our statutes, those approved in 2004 any person can candidate itself till the very last minute before the elections.

As for the voting procedure member nations can vote by POST to the following address:
Hotel NH Breton,
calle Breton de los Herreros 29
Madrid
Attention PIERO CAPPONI
Votes From (Name of Country)

The procedure of voting by post is the following:
1. The nation voting shall clearly indicate on a letter head that the contents of the envelope are the votes.
2. The vote for the role of President, shall be clearly indicated by writing the name on a white paper and enclose it in a white envelope indicated as PRESIDENT.
3. Similarly the vote for the role of General Secretary, shall be clearly indicated by writing the name on a white paper and enclose it in a white envelope indicated as GENERAL SECRETARY.
4. Similarly the vote for the role of Communications Director, shall be clearly indicated by writing the name on a white paper and enclose it in a white envelope indicated as COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR.
5. All these envelopes must be closed and placed in the outer envelope on which there will be the address and clearly indicated to the attention of PIERO CAPPONI (Votes).
6. No vote by email is accepted, the statutes clearly speaks about vote by post.

During the EGM there will be a lawyer who will help in the understanding and controlling of the smooth running of the congress.

Truly in Sports

Silvio Catania
FISTF President


All communications should be addressed to the Secretary to the Board
Please always quote the reference up here when replying to this communication.

What????????????????????????????????????

By the way, who is the lawyer controlling the vote??? Piero, any answer?

maxischn wrote:haha i like the last "newsletter" especially the part with

"According to our statutes, those approved in 2004 any person can candidate itself till the very last minute before the elections."

Will be funny to see who will stand up as a last-minute candidate

Hey Markus, not the badest thing. Par example, if Vesa wouldn´t win the president´s elections, he could jump in "last minute" as any other (maybe missing) job as candidate (like Marketing).

Nevertheless, Silvio Catania is not again on the list. That´s good news, but who avoid Leonidas Koutromanos, if Vincent goes for Sports?

In the Italian forum I read (de francesco) that the Greek meeting ended with the arrival of the police. Is this true?

Also, I read Giufaz saying that Greece should be disqualified from voting altogether since they have not resolved their internal matters. Any comments?

panagios wrote:In the Italian forum I read (de francesco) that the Greek meeting ended with the arrival of the police. Is this true?

Also, I read Giufaz saying that Greece should be disqualified from voting altogether since they have not resolved their internal matters. Any comments?

I heard that also, but I do not know any details.

Giufaz is not right saying that the matter has not been resolved. Three years now FISTF accepted Koutroumanos as their legal partner, although everybody knew that the elections he won were illegal and that there was even a court decision against him in summer 2009.

So, when there is a final court decision and a decision of the Provisionary BoD that Koutroumanos is no longer President, it is VERY SUSPICIOUS to hear that Greece must NOW be disqualified!!!

Giufaz, can you please tell us here about the matter?

drastis wrote:

panagios wrote:In the Italian forum I read (de francesco) that the Greek meeting ended with the arrival of the police. Is this true?

Also, I read Giufaz saying that Greece should be disqualified from voting altogether since they have not resolved their internal matters. Any comments?

I heard that also, but I do not know any details.

Giufaz is not right saying that the matter has not been resolved. Three years now FISTF accepted Koutroumanos as their legal partner, although everybody knew that the elections he won were illegal and that there was even a court decision against him in summer 2009.

So, when there is a final court decision and a decision of the Provisionary BoD that Koutroumanos is no longer President, it is VERY SUSPICIOUS to hear that Greece must NOW be disqualified!!!

Giufaz, can you please tell us here about the matter?

maybe translations from Italian forum should be done by people able to translate.
I said just that given the situation and ptovifed however that it will be very difficult for FISTTF to understand according to Greek law which is the situation and who is the delegate, it would be very helpful and adult from Grece to make a step back and to avoid to involve FISTF in Greek problems. Of course it is a whish and not a legal opinion.
Otherwise the President of the Congress of FISTF will have to solve the procedural issue before starting the meeting.
It is Stefano Tagliaferri that suggest an official disqualification. I didn't comment this hipotesys as I don't think that the board of FISTF can resolve something like this before the meeting.
Best

Thanks Giufaz,

We appreciate your opinion, but it won't be easy for us to accept that we will have to step back from our right to be part of FISTF in this difficult times. On the contrary, it is our duty now to vote for a new Board that will take care so that such ugly situations will never happen again.

By the way, have you ever heard of an election process where candidates can apply for a post in the last minute?? How can postal vote work when voters don't know who they vote for?

Admin wrote:It's amazing many things are published on the italian forum and nobody is able to give answers on this forum...

Mates,

I frankly disagree. On this forum one often senses a mood of ill will toward Italians, Catania and those who supported him are regarded as the root of all evils, Vincent declared Stefano persona non grata… and do you expect he and Piero to be eager to answer questions at your whim? Are you possibly eager to answer questions raised on the Italian forum, lest you are suspected of weaving ominous plots?

I am not criticizing Vincent, I am trying to talk common sense.

If you think that the Italian forum has a wealth of information that you are missing, go over there, ask politely and be thankful if you are granted an answer.

As a side note, I would gladly convey many items from subbuteoforum.it over here, but I havn’t done so out of concern to be deemed a kind of undercover agent bound to the Italian leadership (yeah, my real name is 007…)



On a more serious note and in a broader perspective, I have an impression that you talk too much about individual candidates, and too little about the chances they have to match together and form a reliable, dependable Board. That is, one that represents all important facets and countries of the international movement to mutual satisfaction.

Here is a short summary of candidates from Stefano de Francesco:

Presidente: Alan Collins (ENG); Markus Jurik (AUT); Vesa Kouvankourpi (FIN)
Segretario Generale: Dreazinakis (GRE) (a titolo personale); Laurent Garnier (FRA)
Vice Presidente - Promozione e Marketing:
Vice Presidente - Sport: Vincent Coppenolle (BEL)
Vice Presidente - Comunicazione: Leonidas Koutrumanos (GRE); Vincent Coppenolle (BEL)
Vice Presidente - Finanze: Fred Vulpes (GER)

Reading this list a couple questions come spontaneously to my mind. For example, is there any chance in the world that Garnier, Coppenolle and Koutrumanos can work together profitably? Yet Vincent is the one candidate for the Sport dept. at the moment, and if he is elected, Koutrumanos will be automatically designated Communication Director – after all disasters he has managed to bring forth to this day.

Who can believe that such an ill-sorted Board will hold together for longer than a few months?

Furthermore, there are apparently no Italian candidates – an ominous indicator of the Board’s prospects to hold FISTF together, am I right?

What I am hinting at is that the coming Board will stand a chance if – and only if – the lobbying manoeuvres that are taking place behind the scenes shall accommodate for the different national interests. If that is not the case, the Board shall fall apart in the same way and for the same reasons the Catania board has collapsed – it was a broad electoral coalition among people who didn’t know each other and didn’t respect each other’s ideas – and I can imagine that after a few months of more frantic arguments and personal insults the different blocks of countries shall drift definitively apart.

Prospects are not good at the moment – I hear that the meeting between the Greek factions to appoint delegates for Madrid had to be dissolved by police, and Stefano is complaining that Denmark wants to cast her vote even if the local federation has not been paying the FISTF association fee in the last 5 years. I am out of the subbuteo politics and I have no idea about who’s right and who’s wrong, but I think this is the moment that everybody should make an effort to find a suitable compromise before the congress – it might well be FISTF’s last chance.

A last-ditch solution might be an interim Board aimed to restore FISTF’s normal activities (calendar, ranking, communications) and to reform the statutes, in order to switch from the absurd system of elections ad personam to an election system by lists, with candidates selected beforehand and sharing a common program, and a President responsible for the single directors and allowed to dismiss them if necessary. I think this program might be shared by all sensible persons, and Stefano says he finds it reasonable.

After an year, in a more relaxed context, we might have FISTF’s first real elections.

Although you are saying you are trying to talk sense, you want the rest of the TF world to go to a forum that uses none of the official languages of FISTF, to ask politely for info that should be in public domains and also be grateful if one gets an answer as if we people are children of a lesser God?

please.

Since we have "problems" with translation from Italian, and since we are not obliged to speak Italian, and since there is no public domain from where ANYONE can find info that should be availabe, please communicate to the people responsible to write all this info IN ENGLISH or FRENCH in the Italian forum.

thank you in advance

The thing about the elections is that the new Board' priority will be have FISTF running again while the current board's priorities were to make table football "professional". Considering the current Board didn't manage to keep the communication going and failed to keep an attractive circuit of tournaments, we know what the majority of players want. After one year, almost everybody agrees it was "better before" and we know what we have to do to make people happy.

There will be other priorities but the plans should not revealed here and now.