Congress

The members of FISTF ARE FISTF ! The Board do work on behalf of the members. The members should tell the Board what to do, the Board should NOT tell the members what to do.

Sometimes I think some people forget this.

Discussions must not continue but nobody is interested to come up with facts everybody is only THINKING.

Is anybody interested to clearify the question, if the board is allowed to cancel an announced congress?
Some people say yes others say no, but nobody has facts and nobody can say he KNOWS it.
Do you really think an answer for that question will be found today, if people are only saying, I think this or that?
The associations of FISTF whos delegates should vote or not tomorrow aren't interested in the candidates, they are not interested, if they act the right way or not, and they are not interested if the board acts the right way or not.
One more time nobody took the time to ask important questions to the right people who could give the right answers.
What are the delegates going to tell the FISTF Board tomorrow, why they have to do elections?
what arguments will they use if the board says it is ok to postpone elections?
Are you sure that members can tell the board that they MUST organize elections today?
You THINK they can, but you don't know, and that's the dangerous thing today, that too many people THINK to know but they don't know for 100%.
If FISTF would really be so important people would inform better and then the situation could be much easier, but actually the board says something and the others say something different, but nobody really KNOWS who is right and who is wrong.
This will be another reason for a big split today, one group thinking elections and congress can be postponed by the board and another group saying it is not possible.
That will be the only discussion at the meeting, i fear there won't be a discussion about the important things, because too much time will be spent for the questions nobody KNOWS 100%.

I wish all of the delegates and board members good luck tomorrow, the future of FISTF is in your hands today.

Heinz

von K. wrote:

Heinz Eder wrote:it sounds like that the next discussion after the week-end will be who was more illegal at the meeting, the members of FISTF or the current board of FISTF.

Discussion may continue, but the members have the power to change rules of the FISTF and BoD doesn't. That's why members don't do anything illegal by making decisions in a Congress that 8 months ago was decided to be held on this friday. That's how I've understood things.

Sorry Martin, but if FISTF would have done what the members want in the last 4 years, nothing would have happened.
There was absolutely no input in the last 4 years from any member.

Heinz

Martin Hodds wrote:The members of FISTF ARE FISTF ! The Board do work on behalf of the members. The members should tell the Board what to do, the Board should NOT tell the members what to do.

Sometimes I think some people forget this.

That may be true about not receiving input, Heinz, but that is not the point of my argument.

My point is that a Board can say what it likes, but with no members there is no FISTF !

Heinz Eder wrote:Is anybody interested to clearify the question, if the board is allowed to cancel an announced congress?
Some people say yes others say no, but nobody has facts and nobody can say he KNOWS it.

Well, I have written it quite many times that the statutes say it clearly that the board has no power to cancel the elections. I really don't understand how the issue is unclear to you or to anyone. Nobody can say he knows it? Really? What part of the statutes did you not understand? Do you really say that you don't know the rights and obligations of the Board and Member nations even if you have been in the board for many years?

Sorry, if I sound crude, but I am little puzzled...

Martin Hodds wrote:The members of FISTF ARE FISTF ! The Board do work on behalf of the members. The members should tell the Board what to do, the Board should NOT tell the members what to do.

Sometimes I think some people forget this.

Martin has 100% right.
BoD can decide for marketing points, for rules, for tournaments, for the places of G.P, I.O, E.C , for ranking , for equipment, etc BUT NO FOR FISTF STATUTES.

For congress meeting, elections the only responsible ARE the members OF FISTF !!! IT IS SO CLEAR AND SO SIMPLE.

Heinz Eder wrote:
This will be another reason for a big split today, one group thinking elections and congress can be postponed by the board and another group saying it is not possible.

The other group didn't saying it is not possible. The other group saying that THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THEIR CHAIRS!!!

So this is the reason for a big split. Maybe is better. I don't want to be member in the same federation with no democratic persons. Do you Heinz?

Everybody can select. Democracy side or no democracy side. It is so easy...

If the actual "provisionnal Board" don't respect the statutes, by not doing a Congress and Elections as planned, a lot of countries will not recognize them as "Board" any more !
They don't have the choice !
Don't worry Heinz !

One more time I want to clearify, if it is not possible to cancel a congress or if it is possible but the board did a formal mistake, I absolutely agree on it that the members have to force the board to make elections. In that case there isn't even a majority of members needed to get elections today. That has to be clearified first today.

If it is possible to cancel a congress, the members can't force elections today in my opinion, but of course they should think about consequences for the unliked way of acting. If the majority of members is against it to cancel the congress, they have the chance to force elections by calling for an Extra Ordinary Congress that request can be done directly at the meeting in Rain.

Generally 1/3 of members of FISTF can request an extra ordinary congress, then the board has to hold the extra ordinary congress in the next 3 months after the request was sent.

Last but not least I wish all of you who are delegates today good luck and a good meeting with a positive result.

Heinz

kechris wrote:

Heinz Eder wrote:
This will be another reason for a big split today, one group thinking elections and congress can be postponed by the board and another group saying it is not possible.

The other group didn't saying it is not possible. The other group saying that THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THEIR CHAIRS!!!

So this is the reason for a big split. Maybe is better. I don't want to be member in the same federation with no democratic persons. Do you Heinz?

Everybody can select. Democracy side or no democracy side. It is so easy...

you are all so funny, because if the players in the world just deceide fuck this board we dont need you then they just run there own europa cup, their own world cup, their own grand prix....

let's see this is all going wrong, you think there will be no europa cup of europa leaugue for example...? what a joke! all teams will just arrive same way they would arrive if there was this silly board! so don't worry to much!

good luck in rain and let let world cup get some more attention. there will be new worldchampions in many categories and there is a club that put all there energy in it to make a great event, at the moment its just all about this election, not right!

If catania insist to keep his chair without congress and elections i have proposal.

Fistf is a WORLD federation like FIFA.
BUT WE HAVEN'T EUROPEAN FEDERATION AS UEFA....
We can create federations for EUROPE ASIA AMERICA AFRICA etc
So UEFA will responsible for all tournaments in Europe. The same the rest federations. And catania's fistf will lost its power.

The meeting was a jolke. Just a big joke.

Admin wrote:The meeting was a jolke. Just a big joke.

Your answer doesn't meet exactly what happened.
First of all the associations showed their power to decide in favour of you to enter the room.

Then we discused a long time about elections. Discussing elections (especially when they are postponed and when the congress is called "meeting") has to be handled with a lot of legal issues. We all were not able to legally assess if
- the elections in january has been valid or not
- the postponement of elections has been valid or not and
- changing the congress into a "meeting" has been valid or not.
I didn't feel safe enough to force elections. We would need a french lawyer to check all that.

Thirdly we reached to build up a council of nations. Launching thi tool in the right way the council will be strongest executive body ever in FISTF. This is what I am looking for.

We also decided about Monaco and Spain being represented by other countries.

Last but not least we ended again in a discussion about elections but noone showed up to force them. Who was able to take responsibility and go for a candidature at friday night ? Each and everybody waited for someone to say "YES" to take the power. We didn't find anybody!

The congress/meeting showed again the disability (regardless from the reasons!) of associations to force the power into their direction. I was disappointed that no official representatives from Austria and France showed up.

The council is the best idea for FISTF. Please think about what the associations will be able to decide. The council can support the board or even let it down. And we didn't miss the opportunity to call for an EGM whenever we want.

We reached a lot on Friday. It's been a good day for FISTF ......

When I asked the same quesions a few days before the congress (meeting), i was nearly called idiot?
When I said if those who are writing here are so sure then they won't have a problem to get elections, people didn't see any problem, now you write that nobody felt sure enough to go for elections, even if the FISTF Board didn't agree on them?
Austria didn't have a delegate because Markus would be very late in Rain, because of his job, and I personally would never go to a meeting without an agenda. How should delegates be prepared, if there is nobody who can tell you what we are talking about?
I think the Extra Ordinary Congress in january was enough for me. Please show me one decision from january which became reality for the season? The statutes are still the same too.

What does it mean that Monaco and (i guess you mean) Gibraltar should be represented by other countries?

The council was already discussed on this forum for months, who does the work to define that council and its work? How will you make sure that the decisions of that council will be accepted by the board as long as that new council isn't officially in our statutes?

Generally I'm not against the council, but it needs to be sure that the council really has the power, you are speaking of, otherwise the members of that council will loose motivation very fast again.

Heinz

Janus_Gersie wrote:

Admin wrote:The meeting was a jolke. Just a big joke.

Your answer doesn't meet exactly what happened.
First of all the associations showed their power to decide in favour of you to enter the room.

Then we discused a long time about elections. Discussing elections (especially when they are postponed and when the congress is called "meeting") has to be handled with a lot of legal issues. We all were not able to legally assess if
- the elections in january has been valid or not
- the postponement of elections has been valid or not and
- changing the congress into a "meeting" has been valid or not.
I didn't feel safe enough to force elections. We would need a french lawyer to check all that.

Thirdly we reached to build up a council of nations. Launching thi tool in the right way the council will be strongest executive body ever in FISTF. This is what I am looking for.

We also decided about Monaco and Spain being represented by other countries.

Last but not least we ended again in a discussion about elections but noone showed up to force them. Who was able to take responsibility and go for a candidature at friday night ? Each and everybody waited for someone to say "YES" to take the power. We didn't find anybody!

The congress/meeting showed again the disability (regardless from the reasons!) of associations to force the power into their direction. I was disappointed that no official representatives from Austria and France showed up.

The council is the best idea for FISTF. Please think about what the associations will be able to decide. The council can support the board or even let it down. And we didn't miss the opportunity to call for an EGM whenever we want.

We reached a lot on Friday. It's been a good day for FISTF ......

Any minutes available from the meeting in Rain ?

Heinz Eder wrote:When I said if those who are writing here are so sure then they won't have a problem to get elections, people didn't see any problem, now you write that nobody felt sure enough to go for elections, even if the FISTF Board didn't agree on them?

It is one thing to ask for elections but the other thing to have candidates ready ! What I meant is that there was no real alternative ....

Heinz Eder wrote:What does it mean that Monaco and (i guess you mean) Gibraltar should be represented by other countries?

No it was Monaco. Monaco was represented by Belgium by written agreement

Heinz Eder wrote:The council was already discussed on this forum for months, who does the work to define that council and its work? How will you make sure that the decisions of that council will be accepted by the board as long as that new council isn't officially in our statutes?

I don't care about statutes any longer ... because others also don't care. The council is a pragmatic way for the associations to get easily influence on the work of the board.

Heinz Eder wrote:Generally I'm not against the council, but it needs to be sure that the council really has the power, you are speaking of, otherwise the members of that council will loose motivation very fast again.

Totally agreed. Rules and procedures have to be done by the council. Because we are FISTF !

There was a list of candidates published
Ok, now I got you, Monaco was represented by Belgium and Spain was represented by another country too.
Ok, if we don't care about statutes anymore, no problem.

Do all countries agree on it to be part of that council?

Heinz

Janus_Gersie wrote:

Heinz Eder wrote:When I said if those who are writing here are so sure then they won't have a problem to get elections, people didn't see any problem, now you write that nobody felt sure enough to go for elections, even if the FISTF Board didn't agree on them?

It is one thing to ask for elections but the other thing to have candidates ready ! What I meant is that there was no real alternative ....

Heinz Eder wrote:What does it mean that Monaco and (i guess you mean) Gibraltar should be represented by other countries?

No it was Monaco. Monaco was represented by Belgium by written agreement

Heinz Eder wrote:The council was already discussed on this forum for months, who does the work to define that council and its work? How will you make sure that the decisions of that council will be accepted by the board as long as that new council isn't officially in our statutes?

I don't care about statutes any longer ... because others also don't care. The council is a pragmatic way for the associations to get easily influence on the work of the board.

Heinz Eder wrote:Generally I'm not against the council, but it needs to be sure that the council really has the power, you are speaking of, otherwise the members of that council will loose motivation very fast again.

Totally agreed. Rules and procedures have to be done by the council. Because we are FISTF !

Any minutes available from the meeting in Rain ?

Heinz Eder wrote: I personally would never go to a meeting without an agenda. How should delegates be prepared, if there is nobody who can tell you what we are talking about?

If that is the reason, then why didn't Austria (or you) demand an agenda? I'm just curious.

Heinz Eder wrote:What does it mean that Monaco and (i guess you mean) Gibraltar should be represented by other countries?

Monaco, Spain and Argentina were represented by others.

Heinz Eder wrote:The council was already discussed on this forum for months, who does the work to define that council and its work? How will you make sure that the decisions of that council will be accepted by the board as long as that new council isn't officially in our statutes?

Generally I'm not against the council, but it needs to be sure that the council really has the power, you are speaking of, otherwise the members of that council will loose motivation very fast again.

If not, then there will most likely be a demand for elections in a months time. It was also discussed that the council should have power over the board, which would be the tool for proposals, but not the executive body of decisions.

It remains to be defined which decisions are big enough for the council. But there wasn't time to do everything, and that will probably be one of the first questions for the council.

Overall there were both positive and negative things in the congress/meeting. But we must build from the positive ones.

[quote="Janus_Gersie"]

Dear Janus ! I live in Monaco/France and I know the French rules !
Here are some answers to your questions :

We all were not able to legally assess if
- the elections in january has been valid or not = Yes, as written on the FISTF Statutes, 2/3 of members ( = Quorum ) asked for that EC and the majority (+50%) wanted elections ...
- the postponement of elections has been valid or not and changing the congress into a "meeting" has been valid or not. = NO ! because we all knew the date since 2006, and it was reconfirmed by the Provisionnal Board in January 2010 after the extraordinary congress ... At the last moment the Provisionnal Board cannot say " We postponed Elections and Congress because we are not ready " They had 8 months to be ready ! Now all the countries will have to spend again a lot of money to go to a new International meeting in an other place ...

Alex popoff: Now all the countries will have to spend again a lot of money to go to a new International meeting in an other place ...

................. especially you who are always present ............

This year Monaco has never played, did not organize any tournaments, did nothing ............

I believe that you have not spent much money to send the delegation .....

de francesco wrote:Alex popoff: Now all the countries will have to spend again a lot of money to go to a new International meeting in an other place ...

................. especially you who are always present ............

This year Monaco has never played, did not organize any tournaments, did nothing ............

I believe that you have not spent much money to send the delegation .....

Very easy to say that about Monaco (and in the same time to all the others countries who don't travel so much for different reasons ) but here we speak about the internationnal community and not my country or your country !
What you don't know, is that i didn't come because of professional obligations but until the last moment I tried to take a plane only to assist to the Congress, but now that I see that everything was postoned I say "thank you my God" to not have been there for nothing !!!
An other thing perhaps you don't know, is that our International Grand-Prix was transfered after the 10 th edition from Monaco to Paris by Laurent Garnier only with the explanation that " it will be good if the Grand-Prix will be organized each year by a different club in the country ".
So now we wait for an "official FISTF board" to see what will be the changes or the new rules about tournaments ... because things can change very fast as we can see ( 2 europa cups, insurance, new materials, ...).

de francesco wrote:Alex popoff: Now all the countries will have to spend again a lot of money to go to a new International meeting in an other place ...

................. especially you who are always present ............

This year Monaco has never played, did not organize any tournaments, did nothing ............

I believe that you have not spent much money to send the delegation .....

I agree with Stefano that monaco was not present in Rain didn't organise tournaments did nothing.
Please tell us what decisions you took to help small countries the last 8 months?
What is your programm for these occasions?
I will give the answers for you.
You decide at least 8 italian teams in Europa cups and 2 by monaco.
You decide 6 italian players in veteran category but only 2 by monaco.
You decide no more qualifications by world ranking in E.C.and W.C. so more clubs will loose their interest for travelling in international tournaments in monaco for example.
You care for the promotion in small countries and you gave E.C. 2010 in Rome and W.C 2011 in Palermo without asking for other candidates cities.
8 months i was looking for your programm, i asked many times in this forum information but i didn't ever took answers. I am sorry but i don't speak italian so i cann't look for in italian forums.
8 months is a small period for changes. I understand this. BUT YOU USE 8 MONTHS TO HELP YOUR COUNTRY. Maybe you and your company didn't ever understand that you were members of BoD FOR TO HELP TABLE SOCCER IN WORLD AND NO REPRESENTERS OF YOUR COUNTRIES TO HELP TABLE SOCCER ONLY IN YOUR COUNTRY.

out of your post, I only want to comment that part.

You decide 6 italian players in veteran category but only 2 by monaco.

Italy only had 6 players, because other associations didn't come or didn't nominate substitutes, that's the only reason, nothing more. Monaco could also have a maximum of 4 players (2 nominated by the association and 2 substitutes), both substitutes would be taken before any italian substitute would be taken. Don't make the italians responsible for it that some associations don't attend the World Cup.

Heinz

kechris wrote:

de francesco wrote:Alex popoff: Now all the countries will have to spend again a lot of money to go to a new International meeting in an other place ...

................. especially you who are always present ............

This year Monaco has never played, did not organize any tournaments, did nothing ............

I believe that you have not spent much money to send the delegation .....

I agree with Stefano that monaco was not present in Rain didn't organise tournaments did nothing.
Please tell us what decisions you took to help small countries the last 8 months?
What is your programm for these occasions?
I will give the answers for you.
You decide at least 8 italian teams in Europa cups and 2 by monaco.
You decide 6 italian players in veteran category but only 2 by monaco.
You decide no more qualifications by world ranking in E.C.and W.C. so more clubs will loose their interest for travelling in international tournaments in monaco for example.
You care for the promotion in small countries and you gave E.C. 2010 in Rome and W.C 2011 in Palermo without asking for other candidates cities.
8 months i was looking for your programm, i asked many times in this forum information but i didn't ever took answers. I am sorry but i don't speak italian so i cann't look for in italian forums.
8 months is a small period for changes. I understand this. BUT YOU USE 8 MONTHS TO HELP YOUR COUNTRY. Maybe you and your company didn't ever understand that you were members of BoD FOR TO HELP TABLE SOCCER IN WORLD AND NO REPRESENTERS OF YOUR COUNTRIES TO HELP TABLE SOCCER ONLY IN YOUR COUNTRY.

So you think it was better that others didn't care too, but then they sit there and discussed about 3 hours about having elections or not? What was the productive result of that meeting? A council?
The new slogan seems to be WE ARE FISTF, but more exactly it should be called WE SHOULD BE FISTF.
Read the posts before friday and then tell me what happened on friday please?
I served you the questions already, even then nobody was able to find out what are facts, but people wrote it is quite clear situation, there will be elections on friday for sure.

Maybe somebody should start to take legal advice on that matter. Since january one mistake after the other happens. I asked the federations to work together closer since january, the meeting in january was over, and the only important thing was to wait for mistakes of the new board, instead of concentrating on those points the associations want. You don't need an official council to work for FISTF, it would be already enough to form something like that to make new statutes! What did the associations (WE ARE FISTF)? They waited till the board served their vision and then they only complain about it. Where is the vision of those who are against the proposed one of the board? Nowhere.

That's the way of work? That's the way to bring FISTF forward? We lost another 6 months, that's what we got. There is no strucutre in anything. We need new statutes we all agree on that, but nobody starts to work? When should we get the new statutes? in 2020? If the board isn't ready to work with the associations, the associations have to organize themselves. Then at a congress we have a voting about 2 versions of statutes majority decides which one is the better one and that one has to be implemented.
I always thought that's democracy, having more choices to choose one. The problem of the last years is that there was everytime only 1 proposal on the table (the one of the FISTF Board), nobody else cared about it. Now people also have only 1 proposal on the table, but they don't like that proposal.
Now we have a big chaos, because nobody knows what should happen now. Getting active? NO, too much work and time.

Do we have to wait now till the next congress to vote about new statutes? At the moment even nobody knows when the next congress has to take place, right? How long should we discuss about that secret? When does somebody start to find out the reality?

If the council should work the way that the board has only to send its proposals and the council has to say yes or no, another time the associations negotiate any responsibility. You want power in FISTF, then you must take time to know FISTF and its rules, otherwise associations can't have power as we can currently see.

I hope nobody takes it personally, but in my opinion that's reality for the last years, and we have to change it. People say we are FISTF, but they blame the FISTF Board for many things. Who is FISTF now? The board or the associations? The associations are responsible for developement, a FISTF Board only can develop new countries, but get rid of the dream that the FISTF Board can help you in your country, that's the board of the national association. The associations, clubs and players should be FISTF, but they don't care and they are not active and they don't know what to do with FISTF.

Heinz

von K. wrote:

Heinz Eder wrote: I personally would never go to a meeting without an agenda. How should delegates be prepared, if there is nobody who can tell you what we are talking about?

If that is the reason, then why didn't Austria (or you) demand an agenda? I'm just curious.

Heinz Eder wrote:What does it mean that Monaco and (i guess you mean) Gibraltar should be represented by other countries?

Monaco, Spain and Argentina were represented by others.

Heinz Eder wrote:The council was already discussed on this forum for months, who does the work to define that council and its work? How will you make sure that the decisions of that council will be accepted by the board as long as that new council isn't officially in our statutes?

Generally I'm not against the council, but it needs to be sure that the council really has the power, you are speaking of, otherwise the members of that council will loose motivation very fast again.

If not, then there will most likely be a demand for elections in a months time. It was also discussed that the council should have power over the board, which would be the tool for proposals, but not the executive body of decisions.

It remains to be defined which decisions are big enough for the council. But there wasn't time to do everything, and that will probably be one of the first questions for the council.

Overall there were both positive and negative things in the congress/meeting. But we must build from the positive ones.